Is impactful and visceral sound simply a product of high SPL?

[GXAlan]

View attachment 475543

Peak SPL is often M-noise or pink noise, and these high SPL sweeps are helpful. Production Partner in Germany often does these measurements.

You can see the Meyer Amie can stay above 110 dB at 1m in the HF in a way that the KH310 cannot.

And here is your X20 and X40.

That dip at 850Hz isn’t seen at lower SPLs

Here is the X20

You can see why the Amie’s are such a great product *and* why the x20 and x40 do great for vocal applications when backed by subwoofers.

 

[Mnyb]

I have been playing around with some mains and subs with similar goals to the OP and if you just look at the "maximum output" specs you would not think it would be too hard but as mentioned LF and HF output are much lower than the quoted "maximum output" specs. Neuman has a graph which shows this for their speakers, in this case the KH 310's, which make this issue very clear (most speakers behave in a similar way).

View attachment 475543

The other issue that comes up is subwoofer response. The 7382A sub is 6 dB down at 100 Hz and many "Hi-Fi subs" are similar. This is in contrast to "Large PA subs with Pro drivers" which have huge output between 100 Hz and 200 Hz but roll off below 40 Hz (because they have such high SPL this can be compensated with a high shelf and room reinforcement). When "testing" in addition to measurements I use Neumans "kick drum train" test which has a very wide spectrum with the highest output at ~100Hz. At high volume crossed at 80 Hz this brings the KH310's to their knees with the red light flashing. Moving the crossover to 120 Hz (I have very large subs with 18" pro drivers) solves the clipping problem but brings up 2 more which is some Hi-Fi sub are not really suitable to cross at 120 Hz and localization can become an issue. My solution was to co-locate subs and mains with linear phase crossovers and live with a little uneven measured response in exchange for stereo bass, accurate timing and high SPL. With a multi channel system these issues are just multiplied.

To answer the OP's question the Meyer system can meet your SPL requirements much easier than the Genelecs but with the number of speakers you are looking at both can probably be made to work but integration may be harder than you would think even with all the fancy "automatic DSP". Some compromises and choices will probably have to be made but these are high level issues and both systems will be a lot of fun!

Nice , it may not be as bad as it looks in the hf due to the typical spectrum of music , but it sure bites you in the bass and midbass

 

[Mnyb]

But if I where a professional I would be vary of the raw sources not yet tracked and mixed and balanced to a pleasant sound ,who knows what they contain ? Suppose that’s why you have monitors and high demands of their performance.

 

[Sokel]

The measurements in the reviews on asr say the mains can't truly cleanly do 106dB at 1m and the surrounds are losing it at 96dB so genuinely clean at beyond 105dB at the distance stated does not seem achievable with those speakers at those distances. It's a pretty big ask mind you.

On their own or for a pair maybe no.
But we're talking 9 speakers here, at close distance.

(it wouldn't be my choice for a reference SPL application, but doable nevertheless)

 

[3ll3d00d]

On their own or for a pair maybe no.
But we're talking 9 speakers here, at close distance.

Each channel is independent though so, at least for lcr, you need it from each one independently in order to reproduce the source completely cleanly

 

[Sokel]

Each channel is independent though so, at least for lcr, you need it from each one independently in order to reproduce the source completely cleanly

I admit I don't know HT but are they playing so different material?
I mean totally?

For stereo for example we always add the second speaker to the equation.

 

[3ll3d00d]

I admit I don't know HT but are they playing so different material?
I mean totally?

For stereo for example we always add the second speaker to the equation.

They can be quite different yes, centre is commonly busiest then LR then surrounds. Each channel is generally going to have full scale, or close to full scale, peaks during the entire track though how often, how intense and what frequency range that covers will vary alot.

 

[Sokel]

They can be quite different yes, centre is commonly busiest then LR then surrounds. Each channel is generally going to have full scale, or close to full scale, peaks during the entire track though how often, how intense and what frequency range that covers will vary alot.

I see.
Probably something at the mains monitors range would be more suitable then.

 

[Kain]

@GXAlan

Could I use the ULTRA-X20 all around (LCR, surrounds, overheads) if with the ULTRA-X40 I'm likely to hear hiss due to the amplifier's gain? The X40 is probably much overkill for the room and the X20 would be better suited. By the way, how close do you have to be to the X40 in order to hear the hiss?

@3ll3d00d

The center will go above the TV positioned horizontally (or vertically if the speaker is a 2-way "typical" speaker).

Also, this question is not directed at anyone in particular, but what about the Genelec S360? Could I also use that for all speaker locations (LCR, surrounds, overheads)?

Lastly, have a look at the following home theater on the AVS Forum. It is 9.1.6 in a room that is pretty much the size of my Room 1:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/tower-cinema-9-1-6-in-12x12-room.2473633/

 

[dualazmak]

What about transient response?

Transient response/behavior and time alignment of your subwoofers and woofers, both kick-up and fade-out, at your listening position in your room acoustic environments do matter, I believe.

You can objectively and visually observe the transient response/behavior using rectangular tone burst signal(s) of proper frequency for Fq ranges covered by subwoofer, subwoofer+woofer (around crossover Fq), and woofer, using measurement microphone and Gain-Time-Fq 3D-color-spectrum given by Adobe Audition (I use ver. 3.0.1).

If you would be interested, please visit my posts, under the below spoiler cover, on my project thread.

Spoiler

- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-3_ Precision single sine wave matching method in 0.1 msec accuracy: #504, #507

- Measurement of transient characteristics of Yamaha 30 cm woofer JA-3058 in sealed cabinet and Yamaha active sub-woofer YST-SW1000: #495, #497, #503, #507

- Identification of sound reflecting plane/wall by strong excitation of SP unit and room acoustics: #498

- Perfect (0.1 msec precision) time alignment of all the SP drivers greatly contributes to amazing disappearance of SPs, tightness and cleanliness of the sound, and superior 3D sound stage: #520

- Not only the precision (0.1 msec level) time alignment over all the SP drivers but also SP facing directions and sound-deadening space behind the SPs plus behind our listening position would be critically important for effective (perfect?) disappearance of speakers: #687

- Reproduction and listening/hearing/feeling sensations to 16 Hz (organ) sound with my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio system having big-heavy active L&R sub-woofers: #782

- A nice smooth-jazz album for bass (low Fq) and higher Fq tonality check and tuning: #910, #63(remote thread)

- Summary of critical factors in integration of subwoofer(s) and main woofers in our individual acoustic environments: #3(remote thread)

 

[Heinrich]

Pick your favorite bass frequency

Impactful chest thump can be had with sufficient transient SPL in the 50-90 area.



View attachment 475493

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Lol, what about body mass index BMI? I reconsidered such resonances when optimizing the tire pressure of my bike, and if I shall buy a shock absorber. Nice input to that, thanks!

 

[3ll3d00d]

, this question is not directed at anyone in particular, but what about the Genelec S360?

They have also lost the plot around 96dB@1m if we refer to asr measurements

Lastly, have a look at the following home theater on the AVS Forum. It is 9.1.6 in a room that is pretty much the size my Room 1:

Much smaller speakers being used

IMV you need to look at the design of the space in total as a large no of small coffins surrounding you looks challenging to integrate, particularly if you plan to rotate one of them 90 degrees ( as then consistency across the front 3 becomes a problem). Are the front 3 going into a false wall? You have the advantage of only having to care about one seat though so that may make it easier to get to a good place.

 

[Kain]

They have also lost the plot around 96dB@1m if we refer to asr measurements

True, I also saw the ASR measurements.

However, when talking to people who have listened to the S360, they say it can get very loud. Where is that perception coming from?

 

[3ll3d00d]

True, I also saw the ASR measurements.

However, when talking to people who have listened to the S360, they say it can get very loud. Where is that perception coming from?

96dB at 1m is, by most standards, rather loud. Whether it is loud enough for visceral impact is harder to say and more subjective. If we speak in subjective terms I can say that in my space (not much bigger than yours) -10 is extremely loud, -5 is make sure the house is empty before I start and reference is blowing the doors off. Your ears and mine may be different though

 

[GXAlan]

However, when talking to people who have listened to the S360, they say it can get very loud. Where is that perception coming from?

96dB at 1m is, by most standards, rather loud. Whether it is loud enough for visceral impact is harder to say and more subjective.

Biggest impact to perception is actual listening distance

G

'Poll: What is your listening distance? (Fall/Winter 2024)'

Oct 7, 2024

What’s your listening distance? If you have multiple systems, pick all that apply. (Used at least once a week)​

We have had previous polls in the past but let’s sample the membership again. Feel free to comment with typical SPL or details about your systems.

Since many of us have headphones and speakers, only include headphones if you specifically use them as frequently as your other systems. I have headphones but rarely use them, so I did not vote for that.

Do not include your car in this poll.

• GXAlan
• Replies: 46
• Forum: General Audio Discussions

• 

 

[Kain]

96dB at 1m is, by most standards, rather loud. Whether it is loud enough for visceral impact is harder to say and more subjective. If we speak in subjective terms I can say that in my space (not much bigger than yours) -10 is extremely loud, -5 is make sure the house is empty before I start and reference is blowing the doors off. Your ears and mine may be different though

Thanks.

These people are listening to the S360 from about 2-3 meters and are, apparently, blown away by the volume/SPL.

By the way, sorry if already mentioned, but what speakers do you have and what are your exact room dimensions?

Also, looking at Genelec's "correct monitors" SPL chart, it shows very high SPL figures. But, as it was pointed out, this is between 100 Hz - 3 kHz?

 

[3ll3d00d]

By the way, sorry if already mentioned, but what speakers do you have and what are your exact room dimensions?

Room is 4.15*3.65*3.05m
Listening distance is ~2.9m to the mains, ~1.3m to the surrounds

Speakers are all DIY, some of the amps assembled by me also

3way active mains (AE TD12X powered by bridged cinepro, AE TD12M powered by ncore 400, bms4550/seos15 powered by ucd180) all in a baffle wall behind an AT screen
Radian 5208 coax surrounds (crossover designed by me) powered by UCD400
ported sub upfront (BC 21ds115 tuned to ~ 14Hz and powered by inuke 3000 bridged)
dual uxl18 behind powered by speakerpower sp1-6000

 

[GXAlan]

Also, looking at Genelec's "correct monitors" SPL chart, it shows very high SPL figures. But, as it was pointed out, this is between 100 Hz - 3 kHz?

View attachment 475700

I don’t know where the primary source is for that graph (came from ASR thread) but it’s clearly from the same German magazine.

The reality is that 75 dB with 95 dB peaks is already really enjoyable and loud.

All I can say is that even though I listen quietly, I feel as if I reached my endgame with my Meyer Sound setups. It’s not as flat or as perfect as many other setups, including the JBL 708P I had previously, but somehow I am just very satisfied with them.

@GXAlan

Could I use the ULTRA-X20 all around (LCR, surrounds, overheads) if with the ULTRA-X40 I'm likely to hear hiss due to the amplifier's gain?

It’s audible at 1m on the x40 but as I mentioned, once the music starts, it’s OK.

But yeah, it may be more practical to run X20 all the way around.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the UP4slim and even the MM4XP are good as heights.

At Skywalker Sound, their nearfield rooms were using the Amie along with the older UP-4XP for their heights.

If downgrading the speakers opens up the budget for a Trinnov or the option of 4 subs instead of two for Waveforming, that’s all worthwhile trade offs.

 

[Digital_Thor]

IME, horns, waveguides and bigger drivers, have a tendency to point soundwaves towards you, with less spread, which also gives that sensation of dynamic loading and feeling of more instant loudness and impact.
Sitting close to a compression driver can feel very unpleasant, while a front mounted direct radiating dome tweeter can sound smooth and forgiving.
If you slam the kitchen cabinet, it sounds nowhere near like when you slam the entrance door. Size, weight, power and relative air-tightness plays a big role.
As I recall, you need 8 times the surface area and 10 times the power, to half the frequency response and keep the SPL.

 

[Ciobi69]

Room is 4.15*3.65*3.05m
Listening distance is ~2.9m to the mains, ~1.3m to the surrounds

Speakers are all DIY, some of the amps assembled by me also

3way active mains (AE TD12X powered by bridged cinepro, AE TD12M powered by ncore 400, bms4550/seos15 powered by ucd180) all in a baffle wall behind an AT screen
Radian 5208 coax surrounds (crossover designed by me) powered by UCD400
ported sub upfront (BC 21ds115 tuned to ~ 14Hz and powered by inuke 3000 bridged)
dual uxl18 behind powered by speakerpower sp1-6000

nice system , going for diy speakers too soon