Is impactful and visceral sound simply a product of high SPL?

[boxerfan88]

Pick your favorite bass frequency

Impactful chest thump can be had with sufficient transient SPL in the 50-90 area.

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[Sokel]

Pick your favorite bass frequency

Impactful chest thump can be had with sufficient transient SPL in the 50-90 area.



View attachment 475493

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Way higher for pure, dry, sudden punch like rock songs, up to 200Hz, easy.

Bass: the Physical Sensation of Sound

Ever wonder why you can feel bass? We take a look behind the science of bass waves and the tactile sensations that they cause. Our bass experiments were quite revealing but don't try them at home.

www.audioholics.com

 

[sigbergaudio]

@gnarly

Thanks for the reply.

Based on your feedback, am I correct in assuming that I should have all the "visceral" and "impactful" sound that I want/need in Room 1 with the Genelec setup (not only in the bass frequencies but all the other frequencies as well that will be covered by the 8361A and 8351B)? Having enough headroom for transients will not be an issue regardless of how loud I am listening (and I generally listen very loud)?

Just trying to confirm because in ASR's 8361A review, the 8361A started clipping and limiting the treble at 106 dB at 1 meter. The LCR 8361A speakers will be roughly 2 meters from the listening position in Room 1.

That's difficult to answer without understanding what you are looking for. If you're at a concert, you may feel the sound physically on your body despite being twenty meters from the stage (and speakers), or even further. Needless to say that's a completely different exercise than anything you can achieve in a normal sized room no matter what kind of system you have.

 

[Kain]

That's difficult to answer without understanding what you are looking for. If you're at a concert, you may feel the sound physically on your body despite being twenty meters from the stage (and speakers), or even further. Needless to say that's a completely different exercise than anything you can achieve in a normal sized room no matter what kind of system you have.

I want to achieve reference level (85 dB + 20 dB peaks) with ease and without strain along with some headroom to go above reference level (in Room 1).

8361A LCR speakers will be around 6-7 feet away.
8351B surrounds will be around 4-5 feet away.
8351B overheads will be around 6-7 feet away.

All speakers will be crossed over to around 80 Hz.

I know I will have no issues in regards to bass SPL levels as the 7382A subwoofers have high output.

 

[Sokel]

I want to achieve reference level (85 dB + 20 dB peaks) with ease and without strain along with some headroom to go above reference level (in Room 1).

8361A LCR speakers will be around 6-7 feet away.
8351B surrounds will be around 4-5 feet away.
8351B overheads will be around 6-7 feet away.

All speakers will be crossed over to around 80 Hz.

I know I will have no issues in regards to bass SPL levels as the 7382A subwoofers have high output.

The equation must contain all gain losses too, like for EQ, RC, etc.
The number of speakers though and their SPL ability is more than enough to achieve it 85dB (C) for average with some 95dB (C) for max and 105dB (Z) for peaks.

 

[JohnnyNG]

My amateurish take on this is spl and dynamic capacity in wide frequency range , the typical high end stand mounted 2-way don't do this it may be loud enough in the midband but not further out into the frequency extremes Below <200HZ for example . or it distorts in low treble higher midrange due to the tweeter , you might need a 3-way speaker etc etc. or they´speaker compress unevenly depending on frequency when under stress .

My even more amateurish take is that a 4-way is even better with a dedicated midbass-specific driver between a sub and mains/midrange.

 

[3ll3d00d]

The number of speakers though and their SPL ability is more than enough to achieve it 85dB (C) for average with some 95dB (C) for max and 105dB (Z) for peaks.

The measurements in the reviews on asr say the mains can't truly cleanly do 106dB at 1m and the surrounds are losing it at 96dB so genuinely clean at beyond 105dB at the distance stated does not seem achievable with those speakers at those distances. It's a pretty big ask mind you.

 

[Kain]

The measurements in the reviews on asr say the mains can't truly cleanly do 106dB at 1m and the surrounds are losing it at 96dB so genuinely clean at beyond 105dB at the distance stated does not seem achievable with those speakers at those distances. It's a pretty big ask mind you.

Yes, this is what I pointed out earlier which is why I was asking if the Genelec speakers in Room 1 will have the SPL capabilities to keep up.

Since the ASR measurements say what you said, how does Genelec get such high SPL measurements for these speakers if I look at their website?

 

[Mnyb]

My even more amateurish take is that a 4-way is even better with a dedicated midbass-specific driver between a sub and mains/midrange.

I'm slumming it with 3 ways and 2 subwoofers but they are not as capable as some studio systems re SPL .

Edit: Practically 4-way of a sort..

 

[gnarly]

@gnarly

Thanks for the reply.

Based on your feedback, am I correct in assuming that I should have all the "visceral" and "impactful" sound that I want/need in Room 1 with the Genelec setup (not only in the bass frequencies but all the other frequencies as well that will be covered by the 8361A and 8351B)? Having enough headroom for transients will not be an issue regardless of how loud I am listening (and I generally listen very loud)?

Just trying to confirm because in ASR's 8361A review, the 8361A started clipping and limiting the treble at 106 dB at 1 meter. The LCR 8361A speakers will be roughly 2 meters from the listening position in Room 1.

Yes, I do think you might have room for concern with the 8361A's treble.
And it makes me realize I should have been more specific with my comments about being overboard....I was really only thinking about subs. Sorry about that.
I kinda ignored the mains, since you said you would be having surrounds too...figuring the summation of all those boxes in the relatively small rooms would hit high SPL with full headroom.
BUT, as far as a single 8361A...I agree with 3ll3dood's assessment...it will fall short.

High unclipped VHF SPL is much harder to achieve than commonly realize. Even for large scale live sound, it ends up being the constraint. More subs can always be added to sum coherently, but how to get high VHF from a small single radiator? Once multiples drivers are needed, coherent summations become a big problem. Anyway, I digress...

Personally, if max SPL and headroom is the goal, I'd go with Meyer...in either room.
I've used Meyer UPA-1P's in a 16x14x8ft room with Meyer double 18" subs, and it was one of the best sounding systems I've run. One sub worked fine too.
The UPA-1Ps are the predecessor to the X-40 equivalent, and their equivalent, for reference.
The system sounds fine outdoors at 100ft, although both subs are required (and could use more).

My experience is that sub requirements for visceral impact, are based more on room/area volume to be filled, than anything else. Which was the basis for my first comments.

 

[JohnnyNG]

I'm slumming it with 3 ways and 2 subwoofers but they are not as capable as some studio systems re SPL .

Edit: Practically 4-way of a sort..

That's certainly a four way! The main difference I like is to use a dedicated light "pro" midbass driver with lots of punch (I use an Eminence Kappalite 3012LF) instead of the just high-passing a typical woofer found in a "full-range" 3-way designed from the outset to work without a sub. My "3-way" wouldn't work well used full-range as it assumes a sub which makes it a 4-way.

 

[gnarly]

Since the ASR measurements say what you said, how does Genelec get such high SPL measurements for these speakers if I look at their website?

Made me take a look at the manual..
I'd say two things allow 118 dB the Genelec spec...first is they average from 100Hz to 3kHz....taking the VHF out of the picture.

Second is good ole peak vs average, which most all speakers manufactures will add at least 6-12dB. Genelec looks like about 9dB.
I think It needs to be noted that no one is really measuring short term transients, peak SPL capability. We get max average SPL, but not max peak SPL.



Btw, REW has a true peak reading SPL meter....captures it to the digital sample...pretty cool to see how high the peaks of everyday sounds' are.....like drop a fork on plate, clap hands etc. It's big eye opener for me, on what it takes for reproduction to match real world.

 

[Kain]

Yes, I do think you might have room for concern with the 8361A's treble.
And it makes me realize I should have been more specific with my comments about being overboard....I was really only thinking about subs. Sorry about that.
I kinda ignored the mains, since you said you would be having surrounds too...figuring the summation of all those boxes in the relatively small rooms would hit high SPL with full headroom.
BUT, as far as a single 8361A...I agree with 3ll3dood's assessment...it will fall short.

High unclipped VHF SPL is much harder to achieve than commonly realize. Even for large scale live sound, it ends up being the constraint. More subs can always be added to sum coherently, but how to get high VHF from a small single radiator? Once multiples drivers are needed, coherent summations become a big problem. Anyway, I digress...

Personally, if max SPL and headroom is the goal, I'd go with Meyer...in either room.
I've used Meyer UPA-1P's in a 16x14x8ft room with Meyer double 18" subs, and it was one of the best sounding systems I've run. One sub worked fine too.
The UPA-1Ps are the predecessor to the X-40 equivalent, and their equivalent, for reference.
The system sounds fine outdoors at 100ft, although both subs are required (and could use more).

My experience is that sub requirements for visceral impact, are based more on room/area volume to be filled, than anything else. Which was the basis for my first comments.

Thanks, that makes more sense.

For Room 1, could the following (or something similar from Meyer Sound) work if I wanted to have limitless headroom (for this specific room size):

Meyer Sound ULTRA-X40 for LCR.
Meyer Sound ULTRA-X20 for surrounds and overheads.
4 x Meyer Sound X-400C (two up front and two at the rear).

Also, will these Meyer Sound speakers work well at these close listening distances or are they designed for long distances? I asked ChatGPT and it said they can work at close distances because their design is similar to a coaxial without the drawbacks (as they are not "true" coaxials).

Lastly, how would the sound quality differ between this Meyer Sound setup mentioned above and the Genelec one? I'm asking because these Meyer Sound speakers are more PA speakers while the Genelecs are "true" studio monitors.

 

[3ll3d00d]

Just curious what the use of the system is, home cinema or some studio setup? As you mention a TV but how you going to fit all this kit in around a TV for a surround setup and still sit that close? I guess you will almost be boxed in by the speakers!

Fwiw my mains are even bigger than those physically but they are behind an AT screen hence invisible, my subs are also bigger but embedded in the wall up front so visually not so noticeable (to me anyway). I can't really imagine doing the same with a TV instead. My surrounds are smaller (8" coax) but I think building surrounds to the same spec as LCR when your lcr are the capable to, for my money, absolutely enormous amounts of overkill.

 

[Kain]

Just curious what the use of the system is, home cinema or some studio setup? As you mention a TV but how you going to fit all this kit in around a TV for a surround setup and still sit that close? I guess you will almost be boxed in by the speakers!

Fwiw my mains are even bigger than those physically but they are behind an AT screen hence invisible, my subs are also bigger but embedded in the wall up front so visually not so noticeable (to me anyway). I can't really imagine doing the same with a TV instead. My surrounds are smaller (8" coax) but I think building surrounds to the same spec as LCR when your lcr are the capable to, for my money, absolutely enormous amounts of overkill.

Here is a very rough drawing I made quite a while ago (it's for home theater/cinema). It will also have just one chair instead of two-seater sofa:

 

[GXAlan]

Meyer Sound ULTRA-X40 for LCR.
Meyer Sound ULTRA-X20 for surrounds

Also, will these Meyer Sound speakers work well at these close listening distances or are they designed for long distances? I asked ChatGPT and it said they can work at close distances because their design is similar to a coaxial without the drawbacks (as they are not "true" coaxials).

I own and use the X40, the X20XPs, Amie’s, UP4XPs. The biggest issue with the X40 in residential environments is that it’s a super high gain amplifier, and that means hiss/noise when you walk by the speaker is higher than you expect with most consumer products. I tried using the WiiM Ultra as my source for my X40 and it was annoying enough that I ended up jumping to a Bluesound Node Icon. Because they are coaxial style, they sound great as long as your source is good enough.

The Amie’s, which are not coaxial, also work great at closer distances and I use them in my theater at around 3m no problems. The amplifier has less gain so it works fine even with lower SINAD sources. With room gain and post EQ, I am still able to get to >104 dB at 3m or so.

The new X80 is supposed to have gain control, which might improve noise in residential situations along with digital inputs. The X80 requires 240V power though. The X40 needs 117 AC power and the X20 can be AC or 48V DC powered (different models). It’s another step up in price but cheaper than the Astrya-140.

 

[3ll3d00d]

Here is a very rough drawing I made quite a while ago (it's for home theater/cinema). It will also have just one chair instead of two-seater sofa:

View attachment 475528

Where will the centre go if that's a TV?

That's certainly a hell of a lot of speaker. My room is a little bigger (4.15*3.65*3.05m) but only 5.1 (3way active lcr, passive surrounds and 3 subs, 1 21 and 2 18). I know it's clean beyond reference but I am also confident my hearing wouldn't last too long if I let it rip. My point being... You may be going beyond overkill here on the mains (not really on the subs though)

 

[sigbergaudio]

There's no such thing as too much speaker (or subs), is there?

 

[ckernel8]

There's no such thing as too much speaker (or subs), is there?

No sir

 

[levimax]

I have been playing around with some mains and subs with similar goals to the OP and if you just look at the "maximum output" specs you would not think it would be too hard but as mentioned LF and HF output are much lower than the quoted "maximum output" specs. Neuman has a graph which shows this for their speakers, in this case the KH 310's, which make this issue very clear (most speakers behave in a similar way).

The other issue that comes up is subwoofer response. The 7382A sub is 6 dB down at 100 Hz and many "Hi-Fi subs" are similar. This is in contrast to "Large PA subs with Pro drivers" which have huge output between 100 Hz and 200 Hz but roll off below 40 Hz (because they have such high SPL this can be compensated with a high shelf and room reinforcement). When "testing" in addition to measurements I use Neumans "kick drum train" test which has a very wide spectrum with the highest output at ~100Hz. At high volume crossed at 80 Hz this brings the KH310's to their knees with the red light flashing. Moving the crossover to 120 Hz (I have very large subs with 18" pro drivers) solves the clipping problem but brings up 2 more which is some Hi-Fi sub are not really suitable to cross at 120 Hz and localization can become an issue. My solution was to co-locate subs and mains with linear phase crossovers and live with a little uneven measured response in exchange for stereo bass, accurate timing and high SPL. With a multi channel system these issues are just multiplied.

To answer the OP's question the Meyer system can meet your SPL requirements much easier than the Genelecs but with the number of speakers you are looking at both can probably be made to work but integration may be harder than you would think even with all the fancy "automatic DSP". Some compromises and choices will probably have to be made but these are high level issues and both systems will be a lot of fun!