Is Harman Anti-Audiophile?

[watchnerd]

Every time I read / watch info from the Harman speaker group, regardless of whether it's the JBL Pro side or Revel, a couple of things strike me:

-There is usually some comment about how the speakers in a given line basically are voiced the same, you just get more output and bass extension as you move up the range

-Multi-hour stress tests discussed (e.g. the 705P is tested for 100 hours at 101 dB at 1 m)

-Lots of numbers talk, but very few adjectives

-Not purists or ideologues. They don't seem to get wrapped up in if you have an extra AD or DA conversion in the chain

-No mention of fancy parts, silver wires, special caps, etc.

-No digital de-crapifier products

-Cabinetry ranges from completely utilitarian to just minimally finished when compared to the likes of Oval, Focal, Sonus Faber, etc

Are the Harman speaker designers just sneering at most of the self-styled "visionaries" at the boutique audio brands?

And do the boutique guys look down on the boring Harman engineers for not being artists?

Do hardcore audiophiles shy away from Harman products because it doesn't contain enough "secret sauce" to titillate?

 

[Thomas savage]

I think you will find the boutique guys look onto the harman guys and think ' Christ , I wish I had those facilities and R&D budget, but I'm glad my designs don't get focused grouped to hell or have to be approved and watered down to fit a corporate narrative . Im super glad some sales exc did not just crap all over the last six months of my life ' etc etc

Just a guess

 

[Blumlein 88]

I think saying audiophiles are anti-harman is closer to the truth. JBL has a garbage rep in the USA though it has better standing elsewhere.

Harman isn't anti anything the way I see it. They are pro taking an approach that is efficient and effective to get best results for fewest dollars. Which lets them produce products that actually perform better than the competition. And the competition is not usually boutique audiophile brands.

OTOH, Revel has done well against audiophile brands. They are made with a good enough appearance and performance they get pretty much universally rave reviews. Of course the whole audiophile press pretty much gave up on shootout type reviews it seems to me. They rarely say anything bad about anything. Stereophile has their classes of recommended components, but sometimes you'll have nonsensical results like a product in the same class that costs 1/8th the money while reviewed to provide comparable performance. Sorry, but if the $80k speaker equals the $10k speaker the higher priced model doesn't belong as it is over-priced.

I do think the secret sauce or the privileged high priest who has seen enlightenment is a myth that the current high end market is enamored with. That happens sometimes even when the maker isn't trying to use that. Like Wilson which has a mythic reputation, and though expensive Wilson has always been about super build quality, reference to live recordings and solid well engineered products. The buyers of most Wilson gear are buying the myth they are just lucky a solid product is behind it. Magico has also fallen into this category.

 

[amirm]

They are that and that unfortunately costs them acceptance in the high-end audiophile community. Note that the speaker division also makes an odd couple with the Mark Levinson brand.

 

[Old Listener]

How about viewing Harman's approach in a more positive way? Backed by their own and others' research, they are taking their own approach to engineering and marketing.

And let's be honest about the audiophile community. Many audiophile listeners are vocally anti science and engineering. Even if boutique manufacturers respect and make use of sound science and engineering (and measurement!), they may choose not to talk about what they did to make good products.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Stereophile has their classes of recommended components, but sometimes you'll have nonsensical results like a product in the same class that costs 1/8th the money while reviewed to provide comparable performance. Sorry, but if the $80k speaker equals the $10k speaker the higher priced model doesn't belong as it is over-priced.

Perhaps it is, perhaps not. The classifications are based on subjective evaluation of performance, not price. If you find such a price disparity in a single group, it can mean (1) the cheaper one is an overperformer for its price, (2) the more expensive one is an underperformer for its price or (3) the more expensive one has added features (e.g., operational features and conveniences, exotic technology, extravagant design, exotic furniture/cosmetics, etc..) that some might consider worthwhile.

 

[watchnerd]

OTOH, Revel has done well against audiophile brands. They are made with a good enough appearance and performance they get pretty much universally rave reviews.

I don't know how Revel sales are (pretty good, I'm guessing, or Harman probably just kill the brand), but it does seem they get much less "chatter" on the interwebs than cult brands like Zu.

Maybe it's because they just work and are much less tweaky and finnicky, which makes them boring from an audiophile point of view.

It's sort of like comparing a vintage MG discussion group to a Mazda Miata group.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

With the Revel and Mark Levinson lines, I wouldn't Harman is "anti-audiophile." Heck, JBL even offers a version of their flagship system with Revels instead of Crowns. They know full well that you can't hear a difference, but they offer it up for audiophile consumption anyway. But beyond that, I think the real truth is that Harman is so successful in pro audio and automotive systems that they don't really have to spend much time thinking about audiophiles at all.

Tim

 

[watchnerd]

Many audiophile listeners are vocally anti science and engineering.

Agreed...and from what I can tell, Harman doesn't even try to target those buyers.

For example, there seems to be a complete absence of products around "trendy" audiophile topics.

Aside from corporate culture or branding, this could simply be business practicalities -- targeting the tweakier end of the audiophile spectrum won't really move the Harman revenue needle, so why bother?

 

[watchnerd]

But beyond that, I think the real truth is that Harman is so successful in pro audio and automotive systems that they don't really have to spend much time thinking about audiophiles at all.

Tim

This.

Which echoes my thoughts above -- audiophiles just don't move the revenue needle enough to make them even care.

 

[Sal1950]

I think saying audiophiles are anti-harman is closer to the truth.

Agreed...and from what I can tell, Harman doesn't even try to target those buyers.

That really hits the nail on the head!
There's more to the story here than has been covered so far.
Advertising and the money that flows into the Stereophile/TAS mags (also many HiEnd websites) can be directly correlated to the products covered-praised and included in things like Recomd Comps. When was the last time you saw a JBL ad there?
If you need any further evidence of the influence money has on the coverage of products just look to the cable industry and whats going on there. Ever see Atkinson do one of his excellent measurement sessions on a interconnect or power cord. LOL
The fact that JBL builds many of the best products in the industry and are mostly ignored by the audiophool media majors speaks volumes for the situation.

 

[Thomas savage]

That really hits the nail on the head!
There's more to the story here than has been covered so far.
Advertising and the money that flows into the Stereophile/TAS mags (also many HiEnd websites) can be directly correlated to the products covered-praised and included in things like Recomd Comps. When was the last time you saw a JBL ad there?
If you need any further evidence of the influence money has on the coverage of products just look to the cable industry and whats going on there. Ever see Atkinson do one of his excellent measurement sessions on a interconnect or power cord. LOL
The fact that JBL builds many of the best products in the industry and are mostly ignored by the audiophool media majors speaks volumes for the situation.

TBF JBL don't market to audiophiles , they are the worst managed brand I know of too and that's a contributing factor in their relatively limited market presence in home audio ( beyond Bluetooth speakers and portables ) .

 

[Sal1950]

TBF JBL don't market to audiophiles , they are the worst managed brand I know of too and that's a contributing factor in their relatively limited market presence in home audio ( beyond Bluetooth speakers and portables ) .

Maybe they feel it's not a level, honest playing field and chose to market to the pro's?

 

[Thomas savage]

Maybe they feel it's not a level, honest playing field and chose to market to the pro's?

Well they have a great reputation in the pro ranks ( apparently) I'd say the rest of the brand management is chaotic and in disarray rather that being some chosen direction..

 

[watchnerd]

That really hits the nail on the head!
There's more to the story here than has been covered so far.
Advertising and the money that flows into the Stereophile/TAS mags (also many HiEnd websites) can be directly correlated to the products covered-praised and included in things like Recomd Comps. When was the last time you saw a JBL ad there?
If you need any further evidence of the influence money has on the coverage of products just look to the cable industry and whats going on there. Ever see Atkinson do one of his excellent measurement sessions on a interconnect or power cord. LOL
The fact that JBL builds many of the best products in the industry and are mostly ignored by the audiophool media majors speaks volumes for the situation.

The last time I remember seeing any JBL anything in Stereophile was probably late 80s or early 90s, some big floor stander with a titanium dome midrange.

To prove your point about ads even more, I have seen some show write-ups where some writer went to a Synthesis room, heard something good, and then made some comment like, "we never seem to get to JBL review samples" or similar.

 

[RayDunzl]

The last time I remember seeing any JBL anything in Stereophile was probably late 80s or early 90s, some big floor stander with a titanium dome midrange.

Not completely ignored...

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/jbl_synthesis_1400_array_bg_loudspeaker/

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/906jbl/

http://www.stereophile.com/content/jbls-eye-candy-everest-horn-loaded-speaker

 

[watchnerd]

Not completely ignored...

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/jbl_synthesis_1400_array_bg_loudspeaker/

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/906jbl/

http://www.stereophile.com/content/jbls-eye-candy-everest-horn-loaded-speaker

That last one typifies the tradeshow drive-by I was thinking of.

 

[Cosmik]

And do the boutique guys look down on the boring Harman engineers for not being artists?

Building speakers does not equal art. A speaker builder who thinks of himself as an artist is a seriously deluded person!

 

[RayDunzl]

That last one typifies the tradeshow drive-by I was thinking of.

Ok...

https://www.google.com/search?q=jbl...id=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=site:stereophile.com+jbl

Lots of hits - reviews, drive by, and forum blurbs

 

[watchnerd]

Building speakers does not equal art. A speaker builder who thinks of himself as an artist is a seriously deluded person!

Have you met some of these (boutique) guys?

I was at a show and the designer / maker of a single-driver speaker, with admittedly gorgeous cabinetry, was far more interested in talking about his wood selection, and how each lent a different euphonic color to the sound, than anything tangible.