Is h-fi cheap or expensive

[JW001]

I thought people would understand plain English. I guess now all cleared.

I don't think you understood the joke...

 

[Oddball]

Given the variety or responses, I rest my case.

Economically unaware can adhere to the inflation index and the question what a great speaker is debatable. It certainly is not in the $1k category based on current pricing.

Good luck hunting whatever you are after.

 

[thewas]

Good hifi is nowadays as cheap as never before as anyone can have easy access to real knowledge for free in forums like this and eye opening must-read books like Toole's one for less than $50. With that knowledge some can not only get great new or used hardware for not too high price but most importantly set it up in a way that it bests most "audiophile" multi-dollar systems.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Cheap and expensive aren't really universal measurements.

IE:

if an amp you want is $1000 and you can only scrape up $500, it's expensive.

If an amp is $1000 and you have $5000 to spend, it's "cheap".

It's all relative.

I'd be more inclined to look at the qualities you want in something and then at the costs.......

“Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty-pound ought and six, result misery.”
- Wilkins Micawber

 

[DanielT]

I revise what I said in #30. For good HiFi, around $500 for new speakers. For good used, with a bit of luck, around $150 for good HiFi.

This summer I missed a pair of Infinity Primus 360 that sold for $110. I'm angry that I wasn't quick enough to respond to the seller's ad. They were basically sold immediately. There are apparently more people who read Erin's review about them:

The Infinity Primus 360 speakers, released 20 years ago, showcase superior sound quality and measurement performance compared to many modern speakers, despite their age. The review highlights their design, listening experience, and how they relate to contemporary audio standards.

Highlights

• Found a treasure: Discovered Infinity Primus 360 speakers at a record store.
• Exceptional measurements: Speakers measure within ±2 dB on-axis, indicating high quality.
• Balanced sound: Optimal positioning and slight toe-in enhanced mid-range performance.
• Low-end limitations: Bass response drops off below 50 Hz, requiring a subwoofer for deep bass.
• EQ-friendly design: Early reflections harmonize with direct sound, allowing for effective equalization.
• Value comparison: Speakers from 2005 outperform many modern counterparts at similar price points.
• Personal experience: Listening tests revealed subjective sound differences among users, highlighting the importance of individual perception.

Infinity Primus 360 Speaker Review

Infinity Primus 360 Speaker

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Edit:
Or a pair of vintage speakers for around $150 for some secondary system. Good HiFi, at least their looks but they also seem to measure okay on axes. At least the ones they test. I will leave it unsaid how worn out others can be.

Jurassic (S)park! B&W DM4 - vintage loudspeakers​

“Domestic Monitors” from the Seventies​

To be more precise, two types of bass units were made, early ones had a white surround (tend to age badly, shrink and cones go off centre) and a later black surround. The crossover network was a third order 18 dB/oct Butterworth filter (3,5kHz-14kHz), and claimed frequency response extended from 30 Hz to above 25 kHz (±2dB). Actually, when measured in axis in an anechoic chamber, the frequency response was just 80Hz-20kHz ±5dB and 140Hz-14kHz ±3dB. Nominal impedance was 8 Ohm, with a minimum at 6 ohm (200 Hz) and a maximum at 25 ohm (∼2000 Hz). The DM4 monitor was individually tested in B&W's anechoic chamber and supplied with automatic pen plot showing frequency response.

[Listening test] B&W DM4 vintage loudspeakers

Jurassic (S)park! History and listening test of the B&W DM4 loudspeakers, an article by Lucio Cadeddu on TNT-Audio - Internet HiFi magazine - www.tnt-audio.com

www.tnt-audio.com

No deeper bass to speak of, mediocre SPL plus it is probably an advantage if you are old enough to not hear anything above 14 kHz but other than that they are good for around $150. Worth a listen.
(rolls off at 80 Hz, seems good for integration with a sub thus)

Here a subjective video review. I put that video below mostly so you can see what they look like. Plus he unscrews the drivers and shows the crossover, for those who are interested in seeing it:

 

[DSJR]

The DM4s I sold had a different spongy/light grey driver surround and not the conventional later type as shown. They had a 'friendly' sound I remember, but not quite as 'clean' as the reference Spendor BC1. The larger DM2 was also a pleasant sound, but the bass and lower midrange wasn't as clear as the KEF 104ab, which I fondly remember came into its own with digital sources.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

In the UK, I've found the mid area you entered (Axis/Audiolab/Epos 14) seems to have given way somewhat to the used market now. Some dealer chains still market gear in that price range but the kind of dealers I worked for back then, have shifted severely up-market - KJ West One being one (I worked for the first incarnation from '74 to '82 and returned for a few months in 98 at the current location, now substantially refitted and very exclusive and 'posh' indeed - back in the 70s, the air pollution was so high and no filtration/air con in the Wigmore St location, you needed to dust the gear twice a day to even begin to keep it clean).

High-end Hi-Fi Shop in London | KJ West One | Hifi Store

KJ West One carefully select the world’s finest audio equipment to satisfy our customers demand. We aim to be the premium hifi location.

www.kjwestone.co.uk

Here's the site of a more local audio salon to me, unashamedly Naim, Accuphase and Dynaudio fans, but they now do Wiim as well, which surprised me hugely - The price-list pages may make for an interesting comparison of UK made products such as Rega priced here when compared to the US for example -

Signals | Hi-fi For Grown Ups | Audio Dealer | Felixstowe, Suffolk

We supply & install goosebump inducing audio systems to Suffolk, Norfolk, Essex, Cambridgeshire & beyond. Transform your audio experience today.

signals.uk.com

Nice to register your KJ comments D. Weren't they originally a mail order company? I certainly recall the "posh" store!

 

[dtaylo1066]

I am 68 and got into hi-fi in high school in 1973. Relative to the dollar adjusted for inflation, quality audio today can be achieved for less of an investment than at any time in history. I think in 1973 I paid maybe $250 for an HK receiver, $150 for a BIC turntable, and about $250 for some EPI 100 speakers, and about $350 for a Teac reel-to-reel. So a total of $1,000.

A WiiM Amp, a Tidal subscription, and a pair of $500 speakers today would blow the above system away. And I rejoice in that fact. Audio and TVs are two consumer goods that have vastly improved over time and also gotten less expensive.

 

[Puddingbuks]

Lots of talk about “good hifi” and I agree, you can get a lot for relatively little money nowadays, but what is the goal of this hobby?

Mine is to stretch what is possible in sound reproduction in my home. That means expensive speakers and room treatment. Life is too short for “good hifi”, I aim for the best possible within my financial restraints.

So where a pair of speakers from the TS certainly is “good hifi”, there is a world above that, with flatter response, more SPL, deeper bass, less distortion, better defined soundstage, more details, etc.

Just my 2 ct.

 

[Sokel]

Cost must be counted through time.
Set a timer,5 years for example.What did you spend?

And I mean everything,from speakers to the silliest thingy like a cheap DAC or cables or even the dimmer stickers for the newbie companies which they still search the right resistor for their led (a GREAT quality indicator in my book,some are like bringing a colored sun in your room and on top of that they are directional too,like lasers,someone must tell them that there are special sockets with special glass for them)

Don't grief if the sum would get you to really nicer speakers which is by far the most significant upgrade or the equally worth spending fee for a pro to fix room issues.
It's probably a good lesson about how patience builds character (and gets nicer gear)

 

[DSJR]

Nice to register your KJ comments D. Weren't they originally a mail order company? I certainly recall the "posh" store!

There was KJ Leisuresound in St Albans Road, Watford and the Harrow Audio counter in the main warehouse up a side road near the station. Not sure if in 1974, the Harrow shop existed (it probably did, along with Top Tape (remember that?), but certainly by 1975, the company expanded into several shops around London and the north western home counties, the flagship store opening in Wigmore St W1. In the mid 80s, some time after I'd moved to a small Linn-Naim-Rega style store of a different company in the home counties, KJ began to contract, the Croydon store disappearing, along with the Fleet St one, the Uxbridge store became Uxbridge Audio, Watford became Acoustic Arts and somewhere around this time, the KJ W1 store moved to New Cavendish St, where it remains in significantly posher 'audio salon' form, to this day. Harrow Audio continued initially and owned by the 'K' of the original KJ and survived a store-management buy-out some years back I believe, although I think they've relocated now to Watford, which is a sort-of homecoming I suppose

As an aside and kind-of linked to this thread title. I returned in 1998 to the W1 store for a few months before transferring to a Sth Midlands offshoot (commuting to London is a young people's game with sardine-like crushing and standing room only, in the Bed-Pan train line at peak time I remember with horror). The then joint-owner was pleased that I wasn't fazed by the expensive gear they wanted to sell, but nearly thirty years on from that, I look at the stuff for sale and the prices these vendors ask, I just couldn't do it at all now. This gear does still sell in the UK, but the way things are going and the reported escalating exodus of millionaires from the UK currently, I'm not sure for how much longer (depends on how things pan out across the pond and if it turns out good, how 'our lot' can be leaned on, but that's political stuff not part of this discussion).

The stuff raved over on ASR quite often is almost all 'mail order' you may find, so rather cheaper than if sold via a specialist dealer network wanting humongous profit margins. An SU 1 dac may as well be £/$200 if sold that way for example, so more than double the 'mail order/direct sales' price.

 

[DSJR]

Lots of talk about “good hifi” and I agree, you can get a lot for relatively little money nowadays, but what is the goal of this hobby?

Mine is to stretch what is possible in sound reproduction in my home. That means expensive speakers and room treatment. Life is too short for “good hifi”, I aim for the best possible within my financial restraints.

So where a pair of speakers from the TS certainly is “good hifi”, there is a world above that, with flatter response, more SPL, deeper bass, less distortion, better defined soundstage, more details, etc.

Just my 2 ct.

At my time of life, it ain't a *hobby* any more, but simply a collection of 'tools' to do the job of reproducing music and speech to the best it can and I can afford. All my gear except a couple of cheap dacs, is old, but I think I close it carefully and it still 'sounds' good to me. I can't go louder or bigger and for the future, the system needs to be usable by by son and better half without pain - neither will touch the current 'cooker style' preamp and any form of discussion as regards streaming from their phones meets with baffled looks...

 

[Puddingbuks]

@DSJR don't understand what your point is, but top hifi can be very easy to use. Kef LS60, Kii Seven, etc.

 

[DanielT]

Lots of talk about “good hifi” and I agree, you can get a lot for relatively little money nowadays, but what is the goal of this hobby?

Mine is to stretch what is possible in sound reproduction in my home. That means expensive speakers and room treatment. Life is too short for “good hifi”, I aim for the best possible within my financial restraints.

So where a pair of speakers from the TS certainly is “good hifi”, there is a world above that, with flatter response, more SPL, deeper bass, less distortion, better defined soundstage, more details, etc.

Just my 2 ct.

What I mean by good is baseline good.

What I mean by crazy High End is damn unnecessarily expensive cables, expensive ...what ever expensive HiFi/ High End snake oil.

Some examples. Not directly snake oil but poor performance set in relation to price:
Expensive poorly performing tube amps such as:

Carver Crimson 275 Review (Tube Amp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Carver Crimson 275 tube stereo power amplifier. It was purchased new by member @paulbottlehead and given to me for testing. It costs US $2750. I really like the way the amplifier looks. The burgundy color is attractive as is the handle. On the...

audiosciencereview.com

Speakers that can cost over $100K, that measure poorly.
There the template for that Audio Note , Snell Type E/III, measures better and can be had for less than a twentieth of that price.

Audio Note speakers

What's the deal with Audio Note speakers ? They have so many models and they're not exactly cheap (can cost over $100K) And it seems they're "legendary " speakers on other audiophile forums. What's so special about them ?

audiosciencereview.com

Or KEF 104ab as DSJR mentions in #46. I'd rather take a pair of KEF 104ab (in good condition) than a pair of Audio Notes. Even there, the KEF 104ab, costs around a twentieth of what the Autio Note costs.
Those were just a few examples. There are countless such examples that show the weirdness of so-called High End.

BUT you have, from what I can see you write, what I would consider GOOD High End, top HiFi or quite a few pinholes higher up the scale than what can be passed to be good acceptable HiFi. HiFi that cost a decent amount of $ but where the it delivers good results. That is a COMPLETELY different thing. I don't object to that at all. On the contrary. Expensive top HiFi/High End that creates added value is absolutely ok.

The DM4s I sold had a different spongy/light grey driver surround and not the conventional later type as shown. They had a 'friendly' sound I remember, but not quite as 'clean' as the reference Spendor BC1. The larger DM2 was also a pleasant sound, but the bass and lower midrange wasn't as clear as the KEF 104ab, which I fondly remember came into its own with digital sources.

He actually mentions Spendor BC1 in the video and says more or less the same thing as you about the comparison between them. There you two have the same experiences of those speakers.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Lots of talk about “good hifi” and I agree, you can get a lot for relatively little money nowadays, but what is the goal of this hobby?

As per the above, and your further comment, this isn't a 'hobby' for me.

 

[kemmler3D]

Has anyone taken a look at preference score or SINAD vs. $$?

If we find some measurements of gear that's 20+ years old and look at the least amount of money it takes to achieve that SINAD or pref. score today, that would get us toward an objective test of the thread's question.

How much did it cost to get a 5.5 (or 6.0, or whatever) preference score in 1995?

How much did it cost to get a true 16 bits of SINAD in 1995?

What does it cost today?

 

[Andysu]

I revise what I said in #30. For good HiFi, around $500 for new speakers. For good used, with a bit of luck, around $150 for good HiFi.

This summer I missed a pair of Infinity Primus 360 that sold for $110. I'm angry that I wasn't quick enough to respond to the seller's ad. They were basically sold immediately. There are apparently more people who read Erin's review about them:

The Infinity Primus 360 speakers, released 20 years ago, showcase superior sound quality and measurement performance compared to many modern speakers, despite their age. The review highlights their design, listening experience, and how they relate to contemporary audio standards.

Highlights

• Found a treasure: Discovered Infinity Primus 360 speakers at a record store.
• Exceptional measurements: Speakers measure within ±2 dB on-axis, indicating high quality.
• Balanced sound: Optimal positioning and slight toe-in enhanced mid-range performance.
• Low-end limitations: Bass response drops off below 50 Hz, requiring a subwoofer for deep bass.
• EQ-friendly design: Early reflections harmonize with direct sound, allowing for effective equalization.
• Value comparison: Speakers from 2005 outperform many modern counterparts at similar price points.
• Personal experience: Listening tests revealed subjective sound differences among users, highlighting the importance of individual perception.

Infinity Primus 360 Speaker Review

Infinity Primus 360 Speaker

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Edit:
Or a pair of vintage speakers for around $150 for some secondary system. Good HiFi, at least their looks but they also seem to measure okay on axes. At least the ones they test. I will leave it unsaid how worn out others can be.

Jurassic (S)park! B&W DM4 - vintage loudspeakers​

“Domestic Monitors” from the Seventies​

To be more precise, two types of bass units were made, early ones had a white surround (tend to age badly, shrink and cones go off centre) and a later black surround. The crossover network was a third order 18 dB/oct Butterworth filter (3,5kHz-14kHz), and claimed frequency response extended from 30 Hz to above 25 kHz (±2dB). Actually, when measured in axis in an anechoic chamber, the frequency response was just 80Hz-20kHz ±5dB and 140Hz-14kHz ±3dB. Nominal impedance was 8 Ohm, with a minimum at 6 ohm (200 Hz) and a maximum at 25 ohm (∼2000 Hz). The DM4 monitor was individually tested in B&W's anechoic chamber and supplied with automatic pen plot showing frequency response.

[Listening test] B&W DM4 vintage loudspeakers

Jurassic (S)park! History and listening test of the B&W DM4 loudspeakers, an article by Lucio Cadeddu on TNT-Audio - Internet HiFi magazine - www.tnt-audio.com

www.tnt-audio.com

No deeper bass to speak of, mediocre SPL plus it is probably an advantage if you are old enough to not hear anything above 14 kHz but other than that they are good for around $150. Worth a listen.
(rolls off at 80 Hz, seems good for integration with a sub thus)

Here a subjective video review. I put that video below mostly so you can see what they look like. Plus he unscrews the drivers and shows the crossover, for those who are interested in seeing it:

well you put a description about the video but not clicking on it as its clickbait the thumbnail has some guy with mouth open with star trek font text and that is tail tail sign of clickbait video

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

There was KJ Leisuresound in St Albans Road, Watford and the Harrow Audio counter in the main warehouse up a side road near the station. Not sure if in 1974, the Harrow shop existed (it probably did, along with Top Tape (remember that?), but certainly by 1975, the company expanded into several shops around London and the north western home counties, the flagship store opening in Wigmore St W1. In the mid 80s, some time after I'd moved to a small Linn-Naim-Rega style store of a different company in the home counties, KJ began to contract, the Croydon store disappearing, along with the Fleet St one, the Uxbridge store became Uxbridge Audio, Watford became Acoustic Arts and somewhere around this time, the KJ W1 store moved to New Cavendish St, where it remains in significantly posher 'audio salon' form, to this day. Harrow Audio continued initially and owned by the 'K' of the original KJ and survived a store-management buy-out some years back I believe, although I think they've relocated now to Watford, which is a sort-of homecoming I suppose

As an aside and kind-of linked to this thread title. I returned in 1998 to the W1 store for a few months before transferring to a Sth Midlands offshoot (commuting to London is a young people's game with sardine-like crushing and standing room only, in the Bed-Pan train line at peak time I remember with horror). The then joint-owner was pleased that I wasn't fazed by the expensive gear they wanted to sell, but nearly thirty years on from that, I look at the stuff for sale and the prices these vendors ask, I just couldn't do it at all now. This gear does still sell in the UK, but the way things are going and the reported escalating exodus of millionaires from the UK currently, I'm not sure for how much longer (depends on how things pan out across the pond and if it turns out good, how 'our lot' can be leaned on, but that's political stuff not part of this discussion).

The stuff raved over on ASR quite often is almost all 'mail order' you may find, so rather cheaper than if sold via a specialist dealer network wanting humongous profit margins. An SU 1 dac may as well be £/$200 if sold that way for example, so more than double the 'mail order/direct sales' price.

What a cracking good response D! Thank you. Here in Shepperton, even popping into town for the Van Gogh was a chore. And they didn't even play "Vincent"!

 

[Chrispy]

Made me look up my first expenditure on good audio gear (of high fidelity) back in 72. Says my $400 is now about $3k (per the US inflation calculator site). That was just for a tt/cartridge and speakers (started with a handed down receiver from my dad). These days you can very well for minimal current $, tho.

 

[Sokel]

Has anyone taken a look at preference score or SINAD vs. $$?

If we find some measurements of gear that's 20+ years old and look at the least amount of money it takes to achieve that SINAD or pref. score today, that would get us toward an objective test of the thread's question.

How much did it cost to get a 5.5 (or 6.0, or whatever) preference score in 1995?

How much did it cost to get a true 16 bits of SINAD in 1995?

What does it cost today?

We don't have enough data for the significant stuff like speakers.
But just eyeballing a nice Aerial 7T which I guess would have a decent score,plus its decent SPL abilitty,etc I would say someone would need just as much for the SPL and probably double for its spin combined with the above (I exclude looks and premium feel,that's another ball game)

It's all relative of course.