Is FR the only important measurement? Real life testing.

[paulraphael]

Thing that seems funny about the tube amp religion among guitar players, is that when they need more than just a touch of distortion, they use a pedal. And almost all the favorite distortion pedals use transistors.

 

[dtaylo1066]

Thing that seems funny about the tube amp religion among guitar players, is that when they need more than just a touch of distortion, they use a pedal. And almost all the favorite distortion pedals use transistors.

Seeking logic in much of human behavior, thought or actions is most often unproductive.

 

[paulraphael]

Another place that mumbo-jumbo creeps into the guitar world: the fetishization of everything being original. The idea that any "vintage" instrument (hilarious when we're talking about stuff that's younger than half the members of this board) will be devalued by any attempt at refinishing or replacing worn parts.

But when you get into the realm of wooden objects that are truly valuable—like 400 year-old furniture, or $4 million dollar violins—it's expected that they won't be all original A Louis XIV table that's never been refinished, or a Stradivarius with the original fingerboard, would both be considered victims of neglect.

 

[MusicListener]

Thing that seems funny about the tube amp religion among guitar players, is that when they need more than just a touch of distortion, they use a pedal. And almost all the favorite distortion pedals use transistors.

With a tube amp on the edge of distortion, all it takes is a stronger signal to push it into overdrive. The effects pedal isn't there to add distortion, it's there to boost the guitar signal, thereby increasing the distortion from the tube amp. Even though it seems like the distortion came from the pedal, those pedals are just clean boost pedals.

There are solid-state overdrive pedals which are distorting, but they do so in a way that mimics a tube amp's distortion. It's not as good but it's a good approximation. The reason for using these is because a tube amp distorts at a fixed volume, and if that volume is too loud for the room, you have to turn down and therefore can't get the distortion from the amp. Guitarists will often have many different amps - maybe a 15-watter for small clubs, a 50-watter for large rooms and a 100-watter for outdoors - each allowing the amps' distortion without being too loud for the venue. And some amps offer a way to switch between wattage, bias, rectification, etc., in order to offer that flexibility without needing multiple amps.

Then there are solid-state distortions like fuzz boxes which create a very non-tube distortion sound, which have their own desirable sonic traits. A tube amp will never create that tone so it's totally normal that you would use one with a tube amp.

 

[MusicListener]

Another place that mumbo-jumbo creeps into the guitar world: the fetishization of everything being original. The idea that any "vintage" instrument (hilarious when we're talking about stuff that's younger than half the members of this board) will be devalued by any attempt at refinishing or replacing worn parts.

I've definitely seen that. I saw a $100 capacitor for sale for a Les Paul guitar because it was 'vintage' - just pure stupidity.

I also see the opposite - replacing power cords with three-prong grounded cords, replacing electrolytic caps, etc., are commonly-accepted repairs that the majority accept as not just OK but in some cases very important for safety.

 

[paulraphael]

With a tube amp on the edge of distortion, all it takes is a stronger signal to push it into overdrive. The effects pedal isn't there to add distortion, it's there to boost the guitar signal, thereby increasing the distortion from the tube amp. Even though it seems like the distortion came from the pedal, those pedals are just clean boost pedals.

Clean boost pedals exist, but I'm pretty sure that's not what most guitarists are talking about. The ones people covet and hoard and argue about are distortion sources, all somewhere on the spectrum of "overdrive," "distortion," and "fuzz." Tube versions do exist ... but they're the minority, and as far as I can tell are not always at the top of people's lists.

 

[MusicListener]

Clean boost pedals exist, but I'm pretty sure that's not what most guitarists are talking about. The ones people covet and hoard and argue about are distortion sources, all somewhere on the spectrum of "overdrive," "distortion," and "fuzz." Tube versions do exist ... but they're the minority, and as far as I can tell are not always at the top of people's lists.

Well, again, a fuzz sound or solid-state distortion sound is never going to come from a tube amp, so if you want that sound, you get it from a pedal.

If there are guitarists lugging around heavy tube amps but get the entirety of their "tube distortion" from a solid-state pedal, then I would say those are very inexperienced guitarists - perhaps the types that only play in their bedroom and who have never actually gigged regularly.

 

[57gold]

Agree with ML on his points.

Most players who know how to use effects pedals and play tube amps use them to: a) push the front end of the amp to get breakup, compression and sustain (gain boost); or b) to simulate the sound of an amp pushed to distortion at a lower volume than would otherwise be necessary to distort the amp on its own (distortion box).

Many pedals are capable of both, clean signal gain and adding distortion. The well-regarded pedal that has attained cult status and hugely inflated values is the original Klon pedal, which does both. Most pro players who use them, and there are many, use them primarily as clean boosts. The Klon circuit infront of a tube amp adds dynamics, meat and touch sensitivity, so the player feels more connected to what is coming out of the speakers.

This forum is less open to feelings (can't double blind test for them), but how an amp responds to a player's touch makes a huge difference in creating a good performance. Last night, I took out to a gig a newish guitar and an all tube amp that I had never employed with that instrument; was expecting great things. Both the guitar and the amp have sounded and felt amazing with other pairings (no gain or distortion pedals needed as amp has built in three channels of gain and master volumes, creating all tube gain/distortion) but together, the feel and responsiveness was missing, no matter how I messed with the guitar's and amp's controls. Was less than happy with the tone and it affected my playing as I felt disconnected (one step back) from what was coming out of the speakers.

Perhaps my Klon clone could have addressed the feel issue?

Daisy chaining a few pedals in a box in front of a SS amp or relying upon a stack of amp and pedal simulator programs...well, that's someone else's solution. Works for others, fine by me.

 

[Spocko]

b) to simulate the sound of an amp pushed to distortion at a lower volume than would otherwise be necessary to distort the amp on its own (distortion box).

Wouldn't a low wattage (1 watt) amp or one with variable wattage (1/5) allow for this amp distortion at lower volumes?

 

[57gold]

Wouldn't a low wattage (1 watt) amp or one with variable wattage (1/5) allow for this amp distortion at lower volumes?

Yes, many folks have used very low wattage amps in the studio to do just that. Back in day, Ron Wood with Rod Stewart was using small 1950s Fender amps like a Princeton (5 watts), listen to "Im Losing You" on EPTS or EC on Layla used an old Champ (4 watts) for much of his lead playing, both have small @15 watt Jensens (8", I believe). Both are single ended, one 6V6 as power tube. Great in the studio, but lost on stage.

Most players will tell you that the power necessary to push a cab with 12" speakers satisfactorily needs to be in the 20 watt plus range. As Tim (the video guy) points out correctly, the speaker and cabinet make a huge difference in tone. Touring pros who use amps like Dumble and their clones, Soldano, vintage Marshalls favor 100 watt amps over lower output versions for the depth of sound and bass control they have over say 50 watt versions of the same circuit/model, even if they attenuate them.

FWIW, have a new amp from Carr, a small builder in NC, called a Mercury V (photo below) that is 20 watts, with huge gain structure flexibility to stack or run in parallel 2 gain stages a switch to up voltages at 3 levels to increase preamp break up, a 12" speaker and it has switchable attenuator that pads the output to 4 watts down to 0.5 watts for studio/living room use. It also has a line out that captures the amp's gain that can be hooked up to record or to a PA for performance at very low stage volume. Did that latter once...like kissing you sister. Great combo amp with stock Celestion Creamback and sweet reverb circuit. Manipulating the gain stages, one can get classic Fender Blackface to Marshall (ABB, Cream, Free...) tone at reasonable levels versus a cranked 100 watt Marshall, which will get you thrown out of a bar/club.

 

[paulraphael]

Manipulating the gain stages, one can get classic Fender Blackface to Marshall (ABB, Cream, Free...) tone at reasonable levels versus a cranked 100 watt Marshall, which will get you thrown out of a bar/club.

The guitarist in my old band used to play through a plain old Fender Twin Reverb (~80 watts? A couple of 12s?)

To get the tone he liked, he had to crank it loud enough to make enemies of every sound man below 14th St. in Manhattan. As if being a crappy band weren't enough to make enemies.

It takes surprisingly little amp for a guitarist to overpower a small to medium-sized club. Meanwhile, on bass, I had to push the limits of what I could carry just to be audible next to this guy.

 

[57gold]

Twin Reverbs are notoriously loud. Designed for clean head room, they need to be cranked to do blues/rock (Carlos used one on his first album and must have cleared the studio) you can also see George in the Let it Be movie with one. Keef uses a couple of 1950s HP Twins on stage. Overkill for most venues these days where a 20 watt Deluxe Reverb will do the trick.

Twins set up clean at moderate volume can get the tone with a good distortion pedal at lower levels...but they are like 80 lbs with the huge transformers and good speakers, UGH!

I played with a guy who had an Ampeg 2X12 combo that went from off to loud, no in between. Weighed more than a Twin. Great tone on stage, hearing loss during rehearsals.

 

[anmpr1]

This forum is less open to feelings...

I see it as mostly an engineering oriented forum. Who does the best with what they have to work with. But it's gotten too the point that most of it (at least for me) is uninteresting. Because hi-fi gear has come to convergence. None of the amp specs makes audible difference, really. Matched levels and hidden faceplates show that no one can reliably tell anything.

I suppose there might be some interest left in seeing how cheap and how small the Chinese can mass produce the latest and greatest SOA DAC. I suppose. And, loudspeakers are still an issue.

The guitar scene, for all the goofiness, is more interesting (again, to me). And for the most part it's a lot cheaper to get involved in. Creating music (if you can call what I do that) is much more satisfying than listening to the twentieth (or fiftieth) new recording of a Beethoven symphony, through a distortionless DAC.

If I had it to do all over again, with what I know now, I would have collected guitars, and not wasted money on audio gear past Dynakits--gear I can fix and upgrade in my spare time, and gear that still sounds OK, after all these years. Then, when it was time to retire, waiting to die, just buy Benchmark and forget about it.

I mean, you live and learn. That's what I've learned. As with all this stuff, YMMV.

 

[cheapmessiah]

Wouldn't a low wattage (1 watt) amp or one with variable wattage (1/5) allow for this amp distortion at lower volumes?

Yes, in fact plenty of people tour with 15w or less tube amps, most amps sound great right at the speaker, and in any venue that has a PA that is going to mike the amps eiher way it really doesnt matter if the guitar amp is 1w or 300w, and a case can be made for the low wattage amps being easier to mix since the output volume is much lower and the amp is not competing with the PA.

I believe its been said before in this thread, but must stage amps are fake hollow shells used for theatrics, not for sound.

 

[57gold]

Yes, in fact plenty of people tour with 15w or less tube amps

Not this guy, Bonamassa:

All for one guitarist.

Nor this guy:

Eric Johnson switches between Marshalls, Fenders and Dumbles or in this case Two Rock, a Dumble based amp.

Nor this guy either:

But these guys, yes:

 

[Spocko]

Yes, many folks have used very low wattage amps in the studio to do just that. Back in day, Ron Wood with Rod Stewart was using small 1950s Fender amps like a Princeton (5 watts), listen to "Im Losing You" on EPTS or EC on Layla used an old Champ (4 watts) for much of his lead playing, both have small @15 watt Jensens (8", I believe). Both are single ended, one 6V6 as power tube. Great in the studio, but lost on stage.

Most players will tell you that the power necessary to push a cab with 12" speakers satisfactorily needs to be in the 20 watt plus range. As Tim (the video guy) points out correctly, the speaker and cabinet make a huge difference in tone. Touring pros who use amps like Dumble and their clones, Soldano, vintage Marshalls favor 100 watt amps over lower output versions for the depth of sound and bass control they have over say 50 watt versions of the same circuit/model, even if they attenuate them.

FWIW, have a new amp from Carr, a small builder in NC, called a Mercury V (photo below) that is 20 watts, with huge gain structure flexibility to stack or run in parallel 2 gain stages a switch to up voltages at 3 levels to increase preamp break up, a 12" speaker and it has switchable attenuator that pads the output to 4 watts down to 0.5 watts for studio/living room use. It also has a line out that captures the amp's gain that can be hooked up to record or to a PA for performance at very low stage volume. Did that latter once...like kissing you sister. Great combo amp with stock Celestion Creamback and sweet reverb circuit. Manipulating the gain stages, one can get classic Fender Blackface to Marshall (ABB, Cream, Free...) tone at reasonable levels versus a cranked 100 watt Marshall, which will get you thrown out of a bar/club.

Down to 0.5 watt on a 12" Celestion! OK just spent like 45 minutes browsing Carr's website - I LOVE IT

 

[57gold]

Spoke - A lot of guys like the Telestar model, smaller, more range in master volume, multiple output tube choices for voicing and output levels. One I heard had more sparkle/chime than the Merc V, which does the Plexi lead thing (not the fuzzy later Marshalls).

At lower output is the Super B model, tops out at 10 watts. Never played one.

Steve Carr is doing some cool stuff adapting to a low volume world.

 

[Spocko]

Spoke - A lot of guys like the Telestar model, smaller, more range in master volume, multiple output tube choices for voicing and output levels. One I heard had more sparkle/chime than the Merc V, which does the Plexi lead thing (not the fuzzy later Marshalls).

At lower output is the Super B model, tops out at 10 watts. Never played one.

Steve Carr is doing some cool stuff adapting to a low volume world.

As soon as my custom Aluminati guitar arrives, I'll be giving Mr. Carr a call!

 

[57gold]

As soon as my custom Aluminati guitar arrives, I'll be giving Mr. Carr a call!

Never heard of them. Looked them up, remind me of the 1970s Travis Bean I checked out..played great, looked cool, but I was a broke student.

The Aluninati that's shaped like a Jr and has a plexiglass body with chambers looks cool. At 7.5 lbs is reasonable versus the Dan Armstrong Ampeg one that was also created in the 1970s (Keef played one for a while). Those beasts weighed a ton.

Which model have you ordered? I'm social conservative when it comes to guitars, wood is what I love. Played this last night at a local joint, very traditional, made by artists in Austin through that Gator covered Carr:

 

[Spocko]

Never heard of them. Looked them up, remind me of the 1970s Travis Bean I checked out..played great, looked cool, but I was a broke student.

The Aluninati that's shaped like a Jr and has a plexiglass body with chambers looks cool. At 7.5 lbs is reasonable versus the Dan Armstrong Ampeg one that was also created in the 1970s (Keef played one for a while). Those beasts weighed a ton.

Which model have you ordered? I'm social conservative when it comes to guitars, wood is what I love. Played this last night at a local joint, very traditional, made by artists in Austin through that Gator covered Carr:

Ordered the Orion "Dark Matter" but customized to be truly all black non reflective (black anodized hardware) in my home theater when the lights are off but the projector is on - a vanity piece for my channel so I can say the guitar was "Designed for Home Theater" playing while watching a movie LOL.

My current guitar is G&L Fallout but it was getting a bit heavy so this was an excuse to try something different! I used to have a bunch of steel string acoustics but got tennis elbow playing for hours while resting my right arm on the top - my doctor told me to start playing electric guitars instead!