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3) Bought a Positive Grid Spark amp.... I guess one could plug it into a PA and get a fair facsimile of a good sounding guitar rig...but YOLO, why settle for less than the real thing?
Depends what you want. The Spark sounds great regardless if you set it up to sound like a facsimile of something or just dial in a sound you like. But if what you want is not great sound but the real thing then ...

I'm going to reopen the relic question I already took a run at. Because if real is what certain artists you admire use(d) then you can't have that. You have to settle for either vintage or a replica and the reality they represent to you.

Nothing is so enduringly fashionable as nostalgia. Relics are simply replicas that are made to look old and well used. I think they are silly and a bit sad but so's a lot of what consumer capitalism throws up. They make sense if your purpose is to to turn nostalgia into money.
 
I have an EL34 updated circuit of Dynaco ST70 which has solid state rectification. Sounds just like an EL34 tube amp should, to me. I am not an EE, far from it, just an audio and DIY enthusiast, but I cannot argue that tube rectification is going to alter sound, unless of course the post rectification filterning is poorly designed, which has nothing to do with the tube.

I admit that I like the sound of tube amplifiers. I believe there is a difference that I can hear between tube and solid state. From the truth of measurements and those data continually depeicted on ASR, I have come to conclude that my ears and brain must like 2nd order harmonic distortion, or some type of distortion created by tubes. If that tube-like distortion can be added via DSP, that is fine with me, and I would be interested to hear it.

I have yet to solder it up, but Nelson Pass a few years ago designed a simple circuit that dials up H2 distortion. I am going to drop it into my SS system (Bryston or UCD180) power amp) and see how it sounds.


I have concluded when it comes to tubes and SS, that for some people like me, there is something to the sound (not nostalgia, glow, etc, which I don't give a poop about) that is pleasing. Rationally, it must be some type of added distortion.

Normally, distortion in music live or recorded drives me friggin' nuts, so it must be something in the harmonics of tubes amps that my brain finds pleasureabe. I also like the taste of broccoli -- beets too -- and many despise them. Taste buds are different in each person, and so are ears and brains.

I cannot argue that an inexpensive SS amp will measure far better than an expensive tube amp. But in some instances I will find the tube amp much more pleasureable to listen to.

I have two balanced out DACS that I can feed directly into a Hypex UCD 180 balanced amplifier with source a Sony CD player as transport or, more often, an SBC streamer with Volumio. It is ovious the measurements and SINAD of this set up would on this forum be called "transparent," and deservedly so. So why do I get listener fatigue after about 30 minutes of listening, regardless of which of my several sets of speakers I use? Or when using the HP out of the Emotiva DAC? I do not get this fatigue when employing a tube preamp or amp.
 
yeah, I'm the exact opposite, I have no desire to listen to music slathered in H2 distortion- it sounds fuzzy and strained to me and causes fatigue where my ahb2's never do.
people like what they like.
 
yeah, I'm the exact opposite, I have no desire to listen to music slathered in H2 distortion- it sounds fuzzy and strained to me and causes fatigue where my ahb2's never do.
people like what they like.
I recently learned that there are evolutionary psycho-acoustic theories of why harmonic distortion is such a big deal. The first I forget but I think was something to do with babies. The second was that the ear is basically linear up to quite high SPL above which the little bones rattle against each other and are highly nonlinear and this is at or close to the danger zone. This explains why two-tone wailing sirens suddenly produce an interesting 4-tone effect when the emergency vehicle gets close enough. But this may also explain why, when Tony Iommi did what he did on the first Sabbath album, with buckets of harmonic distortion, available for playing at home on a normal record player, it naturally sounded appalling enough to satisfy teenagers with an urgent social need to scandalize their elders and betters.

(I know Iommi wasn't the first but he did innovate and start something that turned out to be big.)
 
yeah, I'm the exact opposite, I have no desire to listen to music slathered in H2 distortion- it sounds fuzzy and strained to me and causes fatigue where my ahb2's never do.
people like what they like.
We are all different in how we process sound, I think. Of course just from a scientific, biological and measurable stanpoint, our individual hearing acutity and frequency response are all different. I find high frequency brightness or distortion the most annoying or fatiguing. I am 66 and my hearing checks out at about 13K. A bright sounding speaker sends me out of the room, quickly.

I think some listening fatigue for me in SS or any gear is the crappy job done on many recordings. And the better the system the more that crap is evident.

A couple other things about what my ears don't like, which is contrary to nostaligia or tube glow addicts:

-- I've never met a speaker with full range driver that I thought sounded decent;
-- Flea powered SET amps and big horn speakers to me are "meh"
-- I have a decent Sony turntable to play the many records from the 70s and 80s that I kept in my basement. I find no magic in vinyl. I have no record that I can say sounds better than a CD or streamed version of the same, and I have a lot of records that I thought sounded magical in the halcyon days of vinyl. Many records sound limited to me unless really cranked up.
 
I once had the pleasure to spend an evening with Les Paul. He told me emphatically he would never play electric guitar on anything but a tube amplifier. Of course that doesn't mean anything, and distorition is part of the essence of electric guitars, but it's an interesting story, and at least made me feel better about owning a tube amp.
 
I recently learned that there are evolutionary psycho-acoustic theories of why harmonic distortion is such a big deal. The first I forget but I think was something to do with babies. The second was that the ear is basically linear up to quite high SPL above which the little bones rattle against each other and are highly nonlinear and this is at or close to the danger zone. This explains why two-tone wailing sirens suddenly produce an interesting 4-tone effect when the emergency vehicle gets close enough. But this may also explain why, when Tony Iommi did what he did on the first Sabbath album, with buckets of harmonic distortion, available for playing at home on a normal record player, it naturally sounded appalling enough to satisfy teenagers with an urgent social need to scandalize their elders and betters.

(I know Iommi wasn't the first but he did innovate and start something that turned out to be big.)
While a large fan of much rock music, I would have to say that any Black Sabbath music played on tube or SS, regardless of transparancy or distortion, will sound bad to my ears.
 
Maybe someone already does this, I'm not in the guitar world, but if someone makes a digital front end for a clean amp, and you have DSP plug ins like plenty of DAW software and recording hardware has to emulate hardware classics, it would be a highly valuable product, if you convince guitar players of the truth of it.

OTOH, I think as an art, picking your poison and working with it, learning to make it work, learning to get a result despite limitations has value too. If you can dial up anything from a menu list, I'm not sure you will stick with a particular sound to make artistic headway to any depth. In all sorts of human pursuits having best of everything can kill creativity, art, and enjoyment vs imperfect tools or less than utopian conditions.

A cliche: Music is art, and audio is engineering is true. However, electric guitars and amps are another of those intersections where it is a bit of both. I would assume originally, electric guitars and the amps were intending to sound like an acoustic guitar only louder. Apparently that didn't last long as quite quickly electrics had their own sound. Distortion and tone were just more tools in the palette of an artist to work with. If we approach guitar amps like some do hifi, the best amp and guitar body would be one that sounded most like a clean acoustic guitar of quality.
Edit: LOL it appears that others have posted about this too, sorry for the redundancy!

Ah yes, you must be referring to THIS (I'm a guitar enthusiast and this seems to be the THING right now)
There are lots of "direct digital to DAW" interface solutions, but this one brings them all together into one amp for maximum versatility. The reviews are universally positive.
Needless to say, I'm getting one!

Screenshot 2022-11-03 at 12.19.08 PM.png
 
anmpr1, I'll react to your numbered points:

1) The relic stuff is mumbo jumbo, Keef kinda gets credit for starting it in my book. He was taking vintage blackguard Teles on the road and they were @50 years old at the time and getting worn, very expensive to replace and even if you found one for sale, no guarantee it would sound and play like the one you loved. So, someone at Fender offered to replicate his main ones down to the wear marks, the replaced neck pick up PAFs...These would be "stage props"; Keef could keep the look of the instruments he was associated with, get 85-90% of the tone and 100% of the look. For him and Fender it made sense, there was a period in late 1980s when he would show up on stage with some new stuff (not Fender or Gibson vintage instruments - he plays Jrs and 355s, as well)...Fender would keep the icon playing Fenders. Then Fender and others started the relic stuff. Found this to be ridiculous as I had for decades been on the hunt for vintage instruments that were great examples, in clean and original condition as possible, paying premiums for clean stuff as folks by the boatload were spending extra money to by new, generally bad looking simulations of worn vintage guitars...utter nonsense. Only relic I play is the relic I relic (wear by playing).

2) Had to look up Josh Scott, never tried one of his pedals. Most of the pedal junkies buy pedals thinking it will make them play better. Playing with people and practice/study (which is hard work) is what will make a player sound better.

3) Bought a Positive Grid Spark amp (a small modeling amp) for my 30 year old son for Christmas a couple of years ago. He "borrowed" a guitar that Roger Sadowsky made 30 years ago or so and taught himself to play (with some pointers from the old man). Studied music theory and voice as minors in college, sang in concert choir and an a cappella group there. So he was/is a quick study on musical matters. Anyways, he doesn't play out or have a band so the Spark is a great apartment amp for him. I guess one could plug it into a PA and get a fair facsimile of a good sounding guitar rig...but YOLO, why settle for less than the real thing?

On Dumble, it is a Fender circuit modified with extra SS and tube gain stages, further customized to get what the player wants. Robben Ford's Dumble is not the same as what Howard built for David Lindley or Lowell George or Christopher Cross or SRV or Eric Johnson...some have more headroom, some more gain, some 100 watts and some 50 watts, some 6L6 output stages other EL34s...Dumble was a man and his brand, he had several models that he further tuned for individual players. To get him to build you one, either he had to know your playing (EC) or you had to come play for him and if he thought you were "good enough" he'd build and voice an amp for you, like a custom tailor. So, that's why they are all different.

Agree conceptually with all your letters. For example, sold a guitar for $60K that I paid $12K for recently. Audio gear, to my knowledge, doesn't of that fringe benefit of ownership. Additionally, I recently acquired a 1934 Gibson L-5...great playing and sounding instrument. Pretty sure I'd not enjoy 1936 audio equipment.
Since you're clearly a Gibson guitar guy, I'm always on the look out a Gibson Les Paul Cloud-9 chambered reissue model that weighs less than 7 lbs. - my unicorn
 
While a large fan of much rock music, I would have to say that any Black Sabbath music played on tube or SS, regardless of transparancy or distortion, will sound bad to my ears.
Yes. And my point is that's the point of the massive distortion used in some genres. It's purpose is to sound as though it's painful and dangerous, or something like that. The fact that you and many others dislike it serves a social purpose for it's fans.
 
Yes. And my point is that's the point of the massive distortion used in some genres. It's purpose is to sound as though it's painful and dangerous, or something like that. The fact that you and many others dislike it serves a social purpose for it's fans.
THIS and it's why I can't listen to Sonic Youth.
 
Edit: LOL it appears that others have posted about this too, sorry for the redundancy!

Ah yes, you must be referring to THIS (I'm a guitar enthusiast and this seems to be the THING right now)
There are lots of "direct digital to DAW" interface solutions, but this one brings them all together into one amp for maximum versatility. The reviews are universally positive.
Needless to say, I'm getting one!
I got one from an early batch having pre-ordered at a discount.

The accompanist feature isn't much use but the app has a drum machine that can be useful in practice like a metronome.

I didn't explore the amps and effects simulations exhaustively because it's so time consuming but I designed a couple of settings that I think sound terrific and it behaves like a proper amp in terms of the volume control on the guitar.

And it has three "volume" controls: preamp gain, master volume, and output level. The first two behave like on a guitar amp with two such knobs. While the latter is simple linear output level. That's the way to do it for a practice amp!

And it seems to have decent drivers since it goes pretty loud. Too loud for home use what with the neighbors and dogs even if I plug in a bass guitar.
 
I got one from an early batch having pre-ordered at a discount.

The accompanist feature isn't much use but the app has a drum machine that can be useful in practice like a metronome.

I didn't explore the amps and effects simulations exhaustively because it's so time consuming but I designed a couple of settings that I think sound terrific and it behaves like a proper amp in terms of the volume control on the guitar.

And it has three "volume" controls: preamp gain, master volume, and output level. The first two behave like on a guitar amp with two such knobs. While the latter is simple linear output level. That's the way to do it for a practice amp!

And it seems to have decent drivers since it goes pretty loud. Too loud for home use what with the neighbors and dogs even if I plug in a bass guitar.
Definitely looking forward to the drum machine and I'm impressed by the chord transcription feature for any song - have you tried it? Is it accurate?
 
Definitely looking forward to the drum machine and I'm impressed by the chord transcription feature for any song - have you tried it? Is it accurate?
Yeah, it's not much use. I believe there are apps that do this kind of thing better but I I haven't tried them. I think it's easier to enter chord symbols into an accompanist app. The Spark app allows that, and it works ok, but I find it easier to do that kind of work on a real computer instead of a phone. Software for that kind of thing is pretty mature now. Even a web app can be good. https://strummachine.com It's UI is really impressively easy. There are plenty to choose from.

But anyway, enjoy the Spark. It's a real swell amp. Fwiw, here's my default setting. The other effects are turned off. That a LOT of reverb, suitable for surf guitar, but there's a knob on the amp to control it so no worries.

1667514557599.png
 
Since you're clearly a Gibson guitar guy, I'm always on the look out a Gibson Les Paul Cloud-9 chambered reissue model that weighs less than 7 lbs. - my unicorn
Favor Gibsons but play these, a 1958 and 1964:

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I have yet to solder it up, but Nelson Pass a few years ago designed a simple circuit that dials up H2 distortion. I am going to drop it into my SS system (Bryston or UCD180) power amp) and see how it sounds.


I have concluded when it comes to tubes and SS, that for some people like me, there is something to the sound (not nostalgia, glow, etc, which I don't give a poop about) that is pleasing. Rationally, it must be some type of added distortion.
...
the H2 generator sounds like an interesting DIY project.
In theory PKHarmonic should be able to do ~ the same thing. Unless those tubes & JFETs do something more than just 'nice' harmonics...
 
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yeah, I'm the exact opposite, I have no desire to listen to music slathered in H2 distortion- it sounds fuzzy and strained to me and causes fatigue where my ahb2's never do.
people like what they like.
Due to various limitations like low power and high impedance, tube amps are very finicky devices. They will only work/sound fine with some particular transducers: e.g. very sensitive speakers in the 100dB area and high impedance headphones like Sennheiser HD650/800.
If you use tube amps with speakers below 90dB efficiency or low impedance HPs (~any planar HP) they will sound exactly like you said: fuzzy and strained. Or lifeless, powerless, mushy etc...
Use them properly and the sound will be very different. The HD650 on a good tube amp may be quite amazing.
 
he has the holy grail of audiophile terminology, applied to guitar amplifiers, debunked in its entirety
I wouldn't go that far. I really enjoy his videos and really like his approach. I think this type of objective thinking is great.

However, there are aspects he doesn't touch on. Listening to an even strum of the strings over a youtube video doesn't even begin to cover the gamut of tonal response between two amps/guitars/players.

Leave effects boxes out of the equation for a moment - the full control system is hands, strings, pickups, amplifier pre-amp/tone stack/power amp/speakers, air and ears. That entire system is what is generating the tone. The difference between things like bias type (fixed vs cathode) may not change the tone but they will affect *when* the amp starts to break up (distort) so the amount of headroom before distortion is affected. The manner in which tubes clip is different than how transistors clip. With tube amps that are at the onset of clipping, when you really dig into the guitar string, there is a natural compression that occurs that is quite pleasing to the player. It causes the player to respond differently than when doing the same thing through a solid-state amp. (Totally ignoring the rabbit hole of modelling amps.)

I think it's impressive that he recognized that the order of tone controls and gain stages plays a major factor in the sound of an amp. He also makes it very clear that the speakers and cabinet have a huge impact. So, an amp is a collection of those things. How it sounds is a result of that stuff, but more importantly, the result of the player that is playing through it. Cool vid.
 
I wouldn't go that far. I really enjoy his videos and really like his approach. I think this type of objective thinking is great.

However, there are aspects he doesn't touch on. Listening to an even strum of the strings over a youtube video doesn't even begin to cover the gamut of tonal response between two amps/guitars/players.

Leave effects boxes out of the equation for a moment - the full control system is hands, strings, pickups, amplifier pre-amp/tone stack/power amp/speakers, air and ears. That entire system is what is generating the tone. The difference between things like bias type (fixed vs cathode) may not change the tone but they will affect *when* the amp starts to break up (distort) so the amount of headroom before distortion is affected. The manner in which tubes clip is different than how transistors clip. With tube amps that are at the onset of clipping, when you really dig into the guitar string, there is a natural compression that occurs that is quite pleasing to the player. It causes the player to respond differently than when doing the same thing through a solid-state amp. (Totally ignoring the rabbit hole of modelling amps.)

I think it's impressive that he recognized that the order of tone controls and gain stages plays a major factor in the sound of an amp. He also makes it very clear that the speakers and cabinet have a huge impact. So, an amp is a collection of those things. How it sounds is a result of that stuff, but more importantly, the result of the player that is playing through it. Cool vid.
And this is why the whole discussion about "creator's intent" (actually the mixing/mastering engineer more than the actual artist performing) and audiophile gear transparency assumes that the listener accepts the mixing engineer's and producer's musical sensibilities. If the guitarist spent years perfecting their finger dampening technique but the producer completely ignores that and instead mixes in other musical elements that they think will sell better, then the end listener is left without ever knowing the guitarist's intent and skills on the fingerboard. This is more than just a circle of confusion.
 
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