Is DIRAC using the right thing in a 2.2 set up?

[Geertidow]

Dear fellow forum members,

I have a 2.2 setup consisting of two KEF R3 metas and two SvS-2000 pro subwoofers.

The KEFs are powered by a nCore 252MP amp and DSP can be done using a miniDSP flex (balanced) with a full stereo Dirac live license.

After level matching and time allignment the system sounds great.

If I apply DIRAC or implement a custom DSP of a much appreciated forum member (@OCA), I can distinct every bass note and recorded freq response in REW is great (although without DSP the frequency is also pretty good because the MLP is in the middle of the room).

The music sounds clear and is very enjoyable and give me less listening fatigue versus without DSP.

I use a target curve with +6dB rolloff at the lower notes. I like both full range and correction up to 300 Hz.

But (hence the forum post), if I listen to really bass heavy music such as the Weeknd (for example with the song Escape from LA) those really low bass notes go missing, or are least they are very diminished. It almost feels as if the true value of the sub is cut short. I really enjoy low bass lines in that type of music. It doesn't happen to higher bass notes such as a double bass in jazz.

I'm not sure if it's a combination of hearing and feeling the bass notes (without DSP there is a peak at 51 Hz for all speakers) or if DSP is less suitable for such music.

Does regulating the bass using DSP always mean losing/diminishing the very low notes?

Any thoughts on this?

 

[ppataki]

Dear fellow forum members,

I have a 2.2 setup consisting of two KEF R3 metas and two SvS-2000 pro subwoofers.

The KEFs are powered by a nCore 252MP amp and DSP can be done using a miniDSP flex (balanced) with a full stereo Dirac live license.

After level matching and time allignment the system sounds great.

If I apply DIRAC or implement a custom DSP of a much appreciated forum member (@OCA), I can distinct every bass note and recorded freq response in REW is great (although without DSP the frequency is also pretty good because the MLP is in the middle of the room).

The music sounds clear and is very enjoyable and give me less listening fatigue versus without DSP.

I use a target curve with +6dB rolloff at the lower notes. I like both full range and correction up to 300 Hz.

But (hence the forum post), if I listen to really bass heavy music such as the Weeknd (for example with the song Escape from LA) those really low bass notes go missing, or are least they are very diminished. It almost feels as if the true value of the sub is cut short. I really enjoy low bass lines in that type of music. It doesn't happen to higher bass notes such as a double bass in jazz.

I'm not sure if it's a combination of hearing and feeling the bass notes (without DSP there is a peak at 51 Hz for all speakers) or if DSP is less suitable for such music.

Does regulating the bass using DSP always mean losing/diminishing the very low notes?

Any thoughts on this?

If you can post your measurements here that would help a lot
Before and after DSP/room correction

 

[Geertidow]

I only have individual speaker measurements at the moment since I'm abroad. But it does show that without dsp the response is reasonable I'd think.

See link:
Link

 

[ppataki]

I only have individual speaker measurements at the moment since I'm abroad. But it does show that without dsp the response is reasonable I'd think.

See link:
Link

The link does not seem to work (for me at least)

 

[Keith_W]

Can't access the file either.

FYI, most of the benefits of DSP can be found in the bass. Sometimes, DSP can send the correction the wrong way - especially if you don't know what you are doing. Also, some people might get used to the bloated bass before DSP, and find that "correct" bass sounds too lean. There are a LOT of possibilities. Without looking at your measurements, nobody can answer your question.

So: enjoy your trip abroad, and when you get back, post the measurements. As Peter says, we need before/after.

 

[Geertidow]

Will do!

 

[90sNintendoKid]

I EQ'd my Larsen 4.3 speakers a few weeks ago and I lost all bass. I use Magic Beans True Target for EQ and it turned out the main listening position had a huge null. I moved the MLP back a foot and the null disappeared. I used RTA (available in REW) to check and when I moved the MLP forward the foot I could see the null.

 

[PashkaTLT]

@Geertidow perhaps there's a null at some frequency (caused by reflections or other drivers).
Ideally post measurements having
- all channels separately
- then L speaker + L sub
- then R speaker + R sub
- then all channels together

Share .mdat file on something like dropbox. Or attach it here to the comment.

 

[smygolf]

And dont forget to post the target curve used in Dirac.

Going from un-corrected to corrected can very well give you the feeling that you are lacking bass.
50hz will give you a punsch in you face.

 

[Geertidow]

@Geertidow perhaps there's a null at some frequency (caused by reflections or other drivers).
Ideally post measurements having
- all channels separately
- then L speaker + L sub
- then R speaker + R sub
- then all channels together
Share .mdat file on something like dropbox. Or attach it here to the comment.

See link (only valid for three days): mdat link

Both sounds nice, I always and using dirac. I made an extra +8 dB setting (I only correct up to 400 Hz) when listening to the weeknd or other bass heavy music.

Thoughts?
I choose the crossoverover at 66 Hz after a day of measuring and following @OCA's brute force optimizer. He was kind enough to run my measurements

 

[Keith_W]

My thought is that you haven't read anything that we said. What is this, only a single measurement, and it's of "all channels". Read what @PashkaTLT requested. And make sure you read this thread and that you have taken the measurements correctly.

 

[Geertidow]

View attachment 478071

My thought is that you haven't read anything that we said. What is this, only a single measurement, and it's of "all channels". Read what @PashkaTLT requested. And make sure you read this thread and that you have taken the measurements correctly.

I thought I saved all measurements, but appartently not. I performed them all as instructed. But the saving probably went wrong

 

[Geertidow]

Dear all, hope this link contains the proper file: mdat link (google drive) or mdat link wetransfer (wetransfer, only 3 days valid)
I used the following Dirac Live target cuve (see photo).
Room is U shaped, 1 leg of that U is used as audio corner.
It is 3.84 m wide, 7 meters deep (but angled, so between 7 and 6.4 meters) and the height is 3.14 m.
DIRAC is still a great addition and the bass in this round (also using a 6dB roloff is also with the Weeknd still really good. But happy to hear some insights.

 

[Keith_W]

All right, let's take a look.

This is "Total system, no dirac" with a target curve superimposed on top of it. I adjusted the target curve so that it's flat from 200Hz upwards. See the treble falling off above 4kHz? The usual culprits are (1) wrong calibration file or no calibration file (2) using the microphone in the wrong orientation (3) measuring the speaker off-axis. We know from other measurements that the KEF R3 Meta does not have a treble fall-off like that, so only you can answer that question.

We can also see that without Dirac, there is too much bass. About 10dB too much.

This is after Dirac with the same target curve applied. I can see that above 400Hz, the two curves are exactly the same, meaning all the DSP occurred <400Hz. I want you to see for yourself what is wrong with the result. Between 60Hz - 400Hz, Dirac has cut too much. There is about 4dB missing across a very broad band of frequencies in the low midrange. Below 60Hz, Dirac hasn't cut enough.

If we compare before Dirac (purple) and after Dirac (blue) with the target curve, you can see what Dirac has done.

I have no idea why Dirac does that. I don't use Dirac at all. The answer is going to be somewhere in the settings.

 

[Geertidow]

All right, let's take a look.

View attachment 478124

This is "Total system, no dirac" with a target curve superimposed on top of it. I adjusted the target curve so that it's flat from 200Hz upwards. See the treble falling off above 4kHz? The usual culprits are (1) wrong calibration file or no calibration file (2) using the microphone in the wrong orientation (3) measuring the speaker off-axis. We know from other measurements that the KEF R3 Meta does not have a treble fall-off like that, so only you can answer that question.

We can also see that without Dirac, there is too much bass. About 10dB too much.

View attachment 478132

This is after Dirac with the same target curve applied. I can see that above 400Hz, the two curves are exactly the same, meaning all the DSP occurred <400Hz. I want you to see for yourself what is wrong with the result. Between 60Hz - 400Hz, Dirac has cut too much. There is about 4dB missing across a very broad band of frequencies in the low midrange. Below 60Hz, Dirac hasn't cut enough.

View attachment 478133

If we compare before Dirac (purple) and after Dirac (blue) with the target curve, you can see what Dirac has done.

I have no idea why Dirac does that. I don't use Dirac at all. The answer is going to be somewhere in the settings.

Thanks for your insights, to clarify:
1. I used the right calibration file (90 degrees) and pointed the microphone upwards
2. I defintely measured off axis since I measured at the main listening position (a triangle of approximately 3 x 3 x 3 meters.
3. Perhaps I'll rerun the integration and perform some PEQ before running DIRAC (or just equalize using the moving mic method and skip DIRAC).

 

[PashkaTLT]

Does regulating the bass using DSP always mean losing/diminishing the very low notes?

No, absolutely not. You can do ANYTHING with miniDSP & Equalizer APO.

 

[PashkaTLT]

On the left side, both your speaker and subwoofer exhibit a null at 69 Hz. However, this shouldn't be a major concern, as the right side will partially compensate for it.

Here’s my suggested approach. It’s not necessarily the definitive solution, nor does it guarantee you’ll prefer it, but it’s what I would try first.

I wouldn’t apply EQ to the R3s (except setting crossover frequency on them), as their frequency response is already quite good. Instead, I’d focus on EQing the subwoofers only.

You can keep the crossover frequency at 66 Hz for both the subwoofers and speakers. Personally, I prefer a slightly lower crossover frequency, around 58–60 Hz, since my speakers handle frequencies above 30 Hz well. The rationale is that many subwoofer enthusiasts, myself included, often boost the bass. If the crossover frequency is set at 70 Hz or higher (or even slightly below), this boost can affect the 70–80 Hz range, which often sounds "boomy." A lower crossover helps avoid this issue.

Additionally, I recommend using a steep filter curve, such as a Butterworth 48 dB/octave. This ensures that the subwoofers and speakers only reproduce their intended frequency ranges. A shallow filter curve allows some unwanted frequencies to bleed through. For example, setting the crossover to 58–60 Hz with a 48 dB/octave curve effectively suppresses frequencies around 70 Hz and above.

Here’s how your crossover settings should look:

But again, personally, I would set the crossover frequency lower, to 58–60 Hz.

Next, I opened your "Total system, no Dirac" measurement in REW and accessed the EQ window. I set the target level to 90 dB, which is significantly higher than the estimated or average level. I assumed you might want to boost the bass, as many enthusiasts, including myself, enjoy this enhancement.

I then generated the filters using the "Match response to target" option and saved them to a file ("Save filter coefficients to a file", selecting miniDSP and 48 kHz in the popup window).

Here’s the generated filter file: http://ug.link/pashka/filemgr/share-download/?id=ce3d17c2130a4fcebc586d1a37fb2162

In miniDSP, select "PEQ" for your first subwoofer and lick the "Menu" button, then link your first sub to the second sub. Then, choose "Load Biquads File," and upload the generated filter file linked above.
You should see the EQ graph change according to the filters.

You might be satisfied with the results as they are. If you want to increase the bass further, simply adjust the gain on your subwoofers, like I often do:

Let me know if you like the results.

 

[PashkaTLT]

The 70 Hz frequency often causes a boomy sound in subwoofers, which is why I emphasize addressing this issue to avoid excessive bass resonance.

Here are two test tracks you can use to identify and reduce that boomy 70 Hz frequency. These tracks feature the ~70 Hz range at a relatively high amplitude. Boosting the bass without caution may amplify this frequency, resulting in an overly boomy and unpleasant sound:

To set up your subwoofers properly, first turn them off and listen to these tracks through your R3 speakers to establish a reference of the low frequencies (say, 40 - 100 Hz) that can or will be affected by the subwoofers, and to understand how these tracks should sound. Alternatively, use high-quality headphones for this purpose. Then, turn on the subwoofers, apply your settings, and ensure they add clean, quality bass that complements your speakers without introducing boomy or annoying low frequencies.
After comparing the sound with and without the subwoofers, you may notice that with the subwoofers the sound actually becomes less satisfying. If so, troubleshoot and address any issues to optimize the sound quality to your liking.

 

[PashkaTLT]

@Geertidow, recently I asked someone to share their opinion on KEF R3s with subwoofers. Maybe it was you, but if not, can you please share how well they work together? Because I already have subwoofers and thinking of upgrading some of my speakers to KEF R3s.

 

[Geertidow]

@Geertidow, recently I asked someone to share their opinion on KEF R3s with subwoofers. Maybe it was you, but if not, can you please share how well they work together? Because I already have subwoofers and thinking of upgrading some of my speakers to KEF R3s.

That might have been me. So far, I've been really satisfied with the result, given you take the time for integration (but that should'nt be a concern for you).
I was suprised how low the Kef R3 meta's can go without subwoofers, but as a bass head I kind of like the really low notes in certain types of music.
So far, the setup I have now is the best I've ever owned, but I also moved to another house where the acoustics are better (the MLP is in the middle of the room (or in the middle of one of the legs of a U, for the room is U shaped).
Thus speaking for myself I'm super satisfied, and if I could not have subwoofers I think I still would be very pleased.
Hope this helps.