Is Digital Audio Transmission Analog? [video]

[Doodski]

Sorry if someone pointed this out already in 6 preceding pages, but of course we can measure properties of bottled water. And there is no doubt that some properties, above some threshold, make a taste difference. Which would be verifiable in a blind difference taste test.

Darko's premise is stupid on its face.

I found the drama of it a bit much. From the imaginary waiting for the door to close behind the deserters that where virtually leaving the room to the 40 years of theory and stuff that backs up his claims. If he's so comfortable and entrenched in the subjective camp then why does he care one bit about tests and blind listening?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

“Digital” is a mathematical representation. Signal transfer is through voltage and voltage is an analog quantity. Digital signal representation is transferred by means of analog quantity - voltage.

No it ain't.
Look up definition for analog .
A series of on/off pulses is not analog.
it only has two states.
Analog has undefined states.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

I am serious, see my response to the other contributor. It's ok if we disagree. You talk about digital "data" me I am talking about the signal itself.

A 44.1kHz square wave is not music, nor audible.

 

[PeteL]

A 44.1kHz square wave is not music, nor audible.

Where is this coming from? I never suggested anything like that?

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Where is this coming from? I never suggested anything like that

. . .Variable Pulse width squarewave, as many audio synthesizer do, you amplify this signal and feed it trough speakers,

 

[PeteL]

. . .Variable Pulse width squarewave, as many audio synthesizer do, you amplify this signal and feed it trough speakers,

The point was: it is more analog because it's in the audio band? You seem to think so.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

The point was: it is more analog because it's in the audio band? You seem to think so.

On my fifth beer this lovely warm summer evening!
Cheers.
Read up in digital vs analog.
I am through for tonight.

 

[DonR]

On my fifth beer this lovely warm summer evening!
Cheers.
Read up in digital vs analog.
I am through for tonight.

Well somebody certainly needs to read up.

 

[pseudoid]

... in a video by Darko Audio saying this explains his subjective opinion of streamers sounding different.

Would someone be kind enough to provide the specific yt link for this video?
There maybe a reason why @amirm intentionally omitted the link. So, please make it as an "inline spoiler' to prevent it from auto-load, in reply content.

 

[DonR]

Would someone be kind enough to provide the specific yt link for this video?
There maybe a reason why @amirm intentionally omitted the link. So, please make it as an "inline spoiler' to prevent it from auto-load, in reply content.

Is Digital Audio Transmission Analog? [video]

A new argument has developed that transmission of digital audio is really analog. And for this reason, everything digital can be subject to audible difference from digital audio cables to digital output of streamers. This was emphasizes in a video by Darko Audio saying this explains his...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Atanasi]

But "Analog" don't relate to audio. At the end of the day your only point is that it's a signal that is not meant to be listened to. But the signal itself. It's a waveform, it has a frequency, it has an harmonic content, it is subject to noise and distortion, it can be represented on a FFT, just out of the audio band. it has all the attributes of an analog signal. What you do with it afterward is not what define the signal itself. The signal is nothing else than a square wave with variable pulse width. It's only digital when you use it that way but "digital" is not an attribute of the said signal.

I think the concept of a "signal" depends on communication and includes the intend way of interpreting the message, otherwise there are just electrical waves or other physical quantities, which are not "signals" as such.
The defining feature of an analog signal is that the voltage of the source, for example, is analogous to some other quantity, like the pressure of a sound wave. Without such an analogy, there is not an analog signal in a proper sense.
Digital signals encode discrete symbols. When analog signals have a limited bandwidth and SNR, they can also be interpreted as discrete symbols by sampling.

 

[DonH56]

The signal on the wire (or on fiber as modulated by the LED or LASER) is analog. It is converted to digital by the SerDes for use by the digital logic circuits.

Definitions I have used "forever":

• Analog = continuous in time and amplitude
• Sampled-analog = discrete time or amplitude, other parameter continuous
• Digital = discrete in time and amplitude

Decades of experience designing ICs like ADCs, DACs, S/H and T/H, amplifiers, and support circuits, plus the past decade-plus testing high-speed SerDes, and more recent experience participating on various audio fora, have taught me that my best response to this debate is to join @Thomas savage in a pint or six and let y'all have at it.

 

[KSTR]

“Digital” is a mathematical representation. Signal transfer is through voltage and voltage is an analog quantity. Digital signal representation is transferred by means of analog quantity - voltage.

Exactly. All digital electronics are RF and analog on the electronic circuit/device level. This is a clear as cake, me thinks.
Clever mathematicians invented digital systems (centuries ago), not "digital" electronic engineers.
It just happened that analog electronic circuits are extremely effcient in respresenting, and working with, the two binary states (or more, sometimes ;-)

 

[MRC01]

At first I felt <shrug> so the he wants to refer to it as analog. But OK, words have meanings, let's think about why this is wrong.

Digital means numbers. It doesn't mean sampling or discrete time, although digital lends itself to discrete time and not to continuous time, so we can assume digital implies discrete time.

Analog implies something that is analogous. The rise and fall of the voltage level is analogous to the compression and rarefaction pattern of sound in the air. Clearly, it pushes a speaker to create those exact compression and rarefaction patterns.

Close but I would quibble with the definition of digital.

Digital is about representing information as discrete states, nothing in between the states. Can be binary, trinary, or whatever. Not necessarily numbers. In fact, numbers can be a continuum (rational numbers, real numbers). Digital states may be represented as discrete numbers, but they don't have to be numbers, and numbers are incidental. The essential point is that the states are discrete.

Analog implies a smooth continuum of signal. Not discrete, but any of infinitely many values within a range is valid. Note that this does not imply that analog has infinite resolution. Some states are so close together they cannot be differentiated.

You said analog means a representation that is "analogous" to the information being represented. This is true. Yet all our senses are perceptually "analog" -- regardless of whether the universe is actually analog or digital, smooth continuous is how we perceive it. So as a consequence analog ends up implying smooth continuous.

... Such a signal over wire is not an analog of the sound. It does contain analogs of the numbers, though. While I'm not mad at anyone who wants to call a continuous signal "analog", it's pointless and causes confusion. Since digital is always encoded in some way, I don't think it's helpful to call it analog when it's a voltage over a wire and digital when it's not. It's still encoded digital. And since digital is always encoded, drop it and call it a digital signal.

I agree. You can have media that stores a smooth continuum, like gradations of magnetic field strength. If when reading it, you apply thresholds to force it into discrete values, then you've "digitized" it.

 

[juliangst]

Recently listened to Darko‘s podcast episode with golden sound. If you want to understand darko‘s opinion on measurements, I recommend listening to it.
I generally don’t recommend trying to argue with tryhard subjectivists because it’s mostly just a waste of time.
But Darko is a bit more open towards different opinions as the podcast has shown IMHO

 

[testp]

i'm just watching darko's video, what's the point of the video, should i impress a lady friend with this or ...*, even my cat would jump out from open window hearing this,

water is water and sky is blue man, enjoy it..

 

[PeteL]

I think the concept of a "signal" depends on communication and includes the intend way of interpreting the message, otherwise there are just electrical waves or other physical quantities, which are not "signals" as such.
The defining feature of an analog signal is that the voltage of the source, for example, is analogous to some other quantity, like the pressure of a sound wave. Without such an analogy, there is not an analog signal in a proper sense.
Digital signals encode discrete symbols. When analog signals have a limited bandwidth and SNR, they can also be interpreted as discrete symbols by sampling.

OK but that is being very, I'd like to say anal (og) on the wording. I guess that yes we could technically use the term "signal" by what is actual information, the content delivered, then yes digital would be appropriate but it's a bit far fetch. Me by signal, I am talking of what I can see on my oscilloscope. The electrical signal. And Amir (and Darko) actually talk about "transmission". The physical voltage variations.

 

[xaviescacs]

In fact, numbers can be a continuum (rational numbers, real numbers).

Rational numbers are not as continuous as real numbers

The idea of continuum is in fact only attained in mathematics. In physics (in nature) we say that some quantities can take any value and we represent them with real numbers, so they mathematical representation is continuous and we know that up to our limit of measurement they can take indeed any value, but that doesn't mean they are truly continuous of course. The conjecture of continuity arises its own problems and questions however, such as if something like 2/3 seconds is a time period that can really exist, or stated in another way, what does 2/3 seconds mean. In the end it seems than nature is discrete at the microscopic limit, but in the world we can measure with our instrumentation, the continuous assumption holds. On the other hand, there are very simple quantum systems or magnitudes that are intrinsically discrete, as the number of possible states is finite and countable, sometimes consisting only two of them, so we could call them binary systems or magnitudes, intrinsically binary.

Digital, as others have said, is a representation, namely a function from any set to {0,1} that we define, like calling something A and something else B.

By the way, great video! Perhaps the best among the educational ones.

 

[MRC01]

Rational numbers are not as continuous as real numbers

The idea of continuum is in fact only attained in mathematics. In physics (in nature) we say that some quantities can take any value and we represent them with real numbers, so they mathematical representation is continuous and we know that up to our limit of measurement they can take indeed any value, but that doesn't mean they are truly continuous of course ...

I'm aware of that, but for purposes of this discussion it's a distinction without a difference. If you prefer, use the word "dense" instead of "continuous", meaning: "You pick any 2 numbers, and I can find another between them". Even though the rational numbers have holes/gaps from a mathematical perspective, they are still dense which is sufficient for "analog" as we're speaking about it here.

 

[xaviescacs]

Even though the rational numbers have holes/gaps from a mathematical perspective, they are still dense which is sufficient for "analog" as we're speaking about it here.

Given the great amount of trigonometrical/periodic functions that arise in signal processing, I would be so confident using rational numbers in this context.

I just commented on that because nobody uses rational numbers to represent a physical magnitude. Some of those gaps are quite meaningful and arise quite often, like sqrt(2) or pi.