"Is Audiophile Snobbery Ruining our Hobby ?"

[DWI]

Of course we should help those who don't know but who wish to learn. sadly, too many who don't know also don't want to know. The wilfully ignorant, as I call them. Best leave those to the other forums, where they'll find solace in the similarly ignorant.

S

It's still a form of snobbery to assume that the wilfully ignorant don't have valid ways of choosing home audio. For example, they might listen at a dealer or having an item on home loan, products may be narrowed down by the size of their listening space, or whether products are aesthetically acceptable in their home. I was always mindful of how long a product has been on the market and the ratio of used/new price - both good indicators of long term popularity.

It is also prejudicial to assume people rely on forums. Of those that buy from audio dealers, my experience, is that the vast majority don't visit forums. The only item I bought based on a forum review was a Zorloo DAC reviewed by Amir - and it broke fairly soon after it arrived.

I had to buy my son a pair of earbuds yesterday, he lives abroad and I need them by Friday. I know nothing about earbuds. We went on a site called Headphonics, they've reviewed just about everything, checked the sales figures on Amazon, found something that seemed to fill the bill for £130 and they arrived today, inside 24 hours. If he doesn't like them, I can send them back. No science involved, but that's how people buy stuff these days.

 

[Newman]

'Condescending' fits the bill better than 'snobbery'.

Yes, that’s a good way to legitimize snobs…

 

[Lsc]

That's the definition of snobbery - thinking you know what's best for other people.

It’s actually thinking your are better than other people or others with less equipment don’t compare to your current expensive gear.

But what’s ruining high end audio is not snobbery, it’s the opposite. It’s saving up hard earned money on some dream amplifiers then hearing that all amps sound the same. It’s finally being able to buy the B&W 800 series after many years only to hear how terrible they are etc etc.

 

[tomtoo]

What about people who are juste dumb. Who see all those numbers and graphs and just don't understand.
they don't deserve your help?

I have not seen that if someone asks that people not try to help here.

 

[clearnfc]

He doesn't have a problem with Amir.

He has a problem with the SINAD ranking and some people on this forum being overly obsessed about it.

This is a common thing I see on other forums too.

I wonder if @amirm scrapped the SINAD ranking from his product reviews and just kept "awards" to the pink panther, if that would change perception of the ASR, elsehwere

Haha, i do agree with you on this. Some folks here are obsessed with SINAD. However, i do personally feel there is nothing wrong with being obsessed with something as long as they enjoy it. However, i hope some of them do understand that not everyone see it that way (i.e. not bothered by SINAD results).

 

[clearnfc]

No, it wouldn't...because the SINAD thing is just a strawman and if it were removed as a potential complaint then they'd move on to something else to complain about. There's no problem at all with the SINAD chart. Anyone who's paying any attention at all recognizes it for what it is - one part of the equation. Most of us also recognize that other factors come into play as well (which have nothing to do with the measurements) such as features, build, appearance. If there's "readers" who drop in here and decide SINAD is all they should be interested in that's on them to do some more "reading."

Yeah, i like your reply. SINAD is just part of the equation. There is alot more to audio than just SINAD result.

 

[clearnfc]

If Gene had any integrity he would invite Amir into the discussion and confront him directly. Making accusations from behind a microphone is cowardly.

Well, i would say its up to him to resolve those issues with amir... If he doesnt want, just let him be. This is the internet, there will be those who like and those who dislike somebody.

 

[amirm]

Of those that buy from audio dealers, my experience, is that the vast majority don't visit forums.

How would your "experience" be relevant to what you are stating? How would you know all the customers of retailers and what percentage of them read or don't read forums?

You think someone buying a audio gear from a retailer doesn't do a search? And land on a forum thread/post about it?

What decade do you think we live in?

 

[qsl]

Haven't watched the video, but actually I think audiophile snobbery is keeping smaller stores in business.

Years ago, a friend of mine wanted to get his first system and we started visting audio stores. The first one, I didn't even wanna go in. Behind the window was only stuff we could never afford. McIntosh, Accuphase, you name it. Nothing for normal people.

I thought the guy would laugh at us and send us away. We told him what we wanted (tower speakers and and amp) and he went: "That's not easy for 2k." My friend was cocky and replied: "If it was easy, we wouldn't have come here."

While he wasn't that impressed with our budget, he put together two systems for us the next week. They were both better than any of the other ones we listened to at the other stores. We got a significant discount on the price too. Way below MSRP. I couldn't find that equipment that cheap anywhere on the internet.
After our first listening session we went upstairs and he was busy unboxing a 5.1 set of KEF Reference speakers. My eyes went wide.

Maybe the guy liked us because somewhat young people wanted to spent "serious" money on hifi. I couldn't help but think that discount was financed by the crazies that buy the expensive stuff. And most likely, these 2 systems he presented were the only ones he had within our budget. While I was intimidated by the shop window at first, that is now the store that I recommend to everyone who's asking me where to go.

I think selling highend stuff is probably the only way for this guy to run his shop. How can he compete if he sells the same stuff that you can also get at chain stores. I don't wanna turn this political but trickle down economics kinda works if you look at how much flagship technology eventually made it into affordable products. Somebody has to pay the bill for R&D, and it is the people who buy the "unnecessarily" expensive stuff.

As long as there's no snake oil involved I have no problem with expensive audio products.

Gent I worked with pointed out one store had a 50 gallon aquarium in the store window. The point? Instant identification if you were his type of customer (presentation and enough sophistication to realize how much money was swimming in that thing). A "budget" system wasn't to be found there.

Another bit about some religious community that had prohibited ostentatious displays. So everyone was required to wear simple black clothes (only to be horrified in their graves they were proto-goths). Outcome- intricate hand carved for god sakes buttons of abalone shell and bone. Even among the ascetic devout, pecking order must be maintained.

Markets have segments, from what is the cheapest thing to get me through the next 5 years to wot a bargain to hand lacquered shizzle.

The problem isn't the segments, but the misrepresentation of one for the other.

 

[antcollinet]

Gent I worked with pointed out one store had a 50 gallon aquarium in the store window. The point? Instant identification if you were his type of customer (presentation and enough sophistication to realize how much money was swimming in that thing). A "budget" system wasn't to be found there.

Another bit about some religious community that had prohibited ostentatious displays. So everyone was required to wear simple black clothes (only to be horrified in their graves they were proto-goths). Outcome- intricate hand carved for god sakes buttons of abalone shell and bone. Even among the ascetic devout, pecking order must be maintained.

Markets have segments, from what is the cheapest thing to get me through the next 5 years to wot a bargain to hand lacquered shizzle.

The problem isn't the segments, but the misrepresentation of one for the other.

The problem is not segments per-se, but the fact that there are segments for horrendously overpriced gear that is sold on the basis it sounds better. $145K dac. 10K+ power cords. These segments should not exist. Nor should any that sells lies.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

I would suggest that that reference to the dongle is not intended as a serious recommendation of the dongle over the dac. It's a largely-humorous response to the other poster noting that there are dacs costing 10% as much that measure better. "Hahaha, 10%? Try 0.25%!" The dac in question is a $3500 (!!!) dac that has fairly mediocre performance.

true, for the performance to be worthy of $3500 it has to offer something next level that we haven't seen before in other DACs.
to be considerate though I think people are aware most products at a price like that will mostly offer the highest ratio of something else like build quality, support, aesthetic or something gimmicky instead of performance.

 

[tomtoo]

true, for the performance to be worthy of $3500 it has to offer something next level that we haven't seen before in other DACs.
to be considerate though I think people are aware most products at a price like that will mostly offer the highest ratio of something else like build quality, support, aesthetic or something gimmicky instead of performance.

No problem as long they not call them audiophiles. They could call them selfe maybe aestheticphiles, support'o'philes..etc.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

No problem as long they not call them audiophiles. They could call them selfe maybe aestheticphiles, support'o'philes..etc.

I agree. I hate it when they try to sell something but don't even put enough effort to prove their statements, and just go with the usual "you have to listen to it" and if someone doesn't hear differences then it's either "incompatibility" or "your setup not great enough" or "your hearing not good enough" etc...
If products perform like they are advertised then it's fine, people can think for themselves.

 

[antcollinet]

true, for the performance to be worthy of $3500 it has to offer something next level that we haven't seen before in other DACs.
to be considerate though I think people are aware most products at a price like that will mostly offer the highest ratio of something else like build quality, support, aesthetic or something gimmicky instead of performance.

I don't think people are aware of that. Just read the marketing blurb for such devices. People buying them think they are getting a massively "top end" sound quality. And will defend that notion to the death.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

I don't think people are aware of that. Just read the marketing blub for such devices. People buying them think they are getting a massively "top end" sound quality. And will defend that notion to the death.

It's quite a shame some people do not enjoy that idea. Personally I would have no issue with cheap products bringing high performance, it's better for ALL of us customers in the end, even if prior to that I already bought those "top end" products

 

[Newman]

Personally I would have no issue with cheap products bringing high performance

Fixed it for you

 

[Andysu]

i'm going to say it . i believe i think gene is watching my videos as i mentioned "audiophile snobs snobbery" some weeks or months ago . gene is just running out of topic videos ? why because i doubt many Americans would even say or mention the word snobbery . mostly British would say , snobbery or snobby .

 

[Enkay25]

What should matter is that we stop arguing about these things and revel in creating a better environment for Hi Fi tomorrow and everyday thereafter.

How?

When that very environment is being muddied by audiophoolery, pseudoscience and belittling any effort towards educating people with audioscience?

Isn't this the whole point - arguments exist because there is a huge room to argue.

 

[JeffS7444]

Disclaimer: I only watched the first 20 minutes of the video, and was vacuuming the apartment for much of it Their specific vision of The Hobby seems to be about dedicated racks of 2-channel electronics and a pair of finely finished loudspeakers sitting in a place of honor in a home. Not mobile, not desktop-sized, and certainly not built around bluetooth headphones.

Might I make a similar claim about the decline of the personal computer by defining "real" PCs as being ATX towers with full-sized PCI Express expansion slots and separate video cards? That market has likewise shrunken and now caters mostly to high-end gamers. But snobbery didn't "kill" the ATX PC. Rather, user expectations evolved, and most people now favor mobile devices.

 

[ryanosaur]

How?

When that very environment is being muddied by audiophoolery, pseudoscience and belittling any effort towards educating people with audioscience?

Isn't this the whole point - arguments exist because there is a huge room to argue.

I recognize it’s an idealistic statement. It is in not doing the very things you identified as standing in the way that changes the dynamic.
Education and understanding is what is important.
Even a person buying low end gear can love sound. Recognizing that and helping them understand the steps to improving what they have does not have to be exclusionary.

Yes, it is an unfortunate aspect of human nature to create barriers to inclusiveness. Just look at our social and political climate.
It may not be possible to stop all “phoolery” in our hobby, but those of us that recognize it for what it is and actively work to not perpetuate it make small differences as we journey down our own path.
You could say that is the turning point with our intellect, that we can choose not to engage in destructive behavior just as easily as we can choose the opposite.