"Is Audiophile Snobbery Ruining our Hobby ?"

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I want to add something to this conversation, from what I've read time to time here it cannot be held as evidence but it is *easy* at times to scroll the forum and read comments from members that were often either SINAD-biased or price-biased.
#1 example from my head is the continuous comparison of that $9 apple dongle to many, many review threads. I feel annoyed every time I see a comment that goes like "wow this product measures [average/good/great] but at X price why should I get it over [cheapest product that offers score the highest SINAD possible]". This is not an exaggeration, some folks do talk like that while ignoring completely the product class, different usability, features and other factors...

#2 is when I feel like people overcriticize a product and sometimes the people that would use/buy it. Even if their comments are factually correct they can be harsh and unnecessarily rude at times and that's something that can definitely make an impression. There could be more (or not) but that's all I remember right now

Of course a vocal and flawed minority does not AND should not reflect nor represent the entire community, but to some people that might be enough to gather an impression that this website heavily favors SINAD (even though it's not that), specifically when it is already above the audible threshold so I don't think we can just say that it's always the reader's fault for not reading enough or so. I say this because I did read and lurk here for a considerable amount of time and that's exactly why I can say this after thinking about both sides (ASR members & outsiders).

WRT #1, you should be cautious with that generalization because most of the time when I see that it's in response to a thread where a person asks if they should replace their current dac with some new dac to improve the SQ of their system. Folks will respond with "you probably wouldn't even hear a difference between an Apple dongle and that new dac so likely not necessary". In other words, it's usually people giving good advice which will save someone from spending money they don't need to spend. I don't see many occurrences of people recommending Apple dongles over other good and reasonably priced dacs the way you suggest.

It would be great to see some examples of some of these situations where people are supposedly valuing SINAD over all else because I'd be willing to bet they are actually quite rare...and probably come down to situations where it's been established that there's no functional difference and no real price difference (or the lower SINAD device is actually MORE costly) between two items at which point, sure...why not use SINAD as the deciding factor.

 

[tomtoo]

I effectively watched it entirely yesterday and missed that very moment for a second. You're right, ASR is clearly mentioned at 12:47, followed by "they're all trying to categorize products", which is absolutely wrong if talking straightly about ASR folks (I stand when talking about overall readers).

Nothing, really. Vulgarisation has gone a long way, already. Even more with the YT channel. It is now up to common readers to pay attention to details or not.

I would not say vulgarisation. If people not like to pay attention, there fault. There is enough objective information on ASR so you can learn how to handel SINAD. Imo its not on Amir or us to explain to each single person. You know the old saying? RTFM.
Or we should do a text?ASR for dummys. Why SINAD is only a part of quality criterias, and the SINAD ranking tells you only a part of the story?

 

[lecriquet]

I would not say vulgarisation. If people not like to pay attention, there fault. There is enough objective information on ASR so you can learn how to handel SINAD. Imo its not on Amir or us to explain to each single person. You know the old saying? RTFM.
Or we should do a text?ASR for dummys. Why SINAD is only a part of quality criterias, and the SINAD ranking tells you only a part of the story?

What about people who are juste dumb. Who see all those numbers and graphs and just don't understand.
they don't deserve your help?

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

What about people who are juste dumb. Who see all those numbers and graphs and just don't understand.
they don't deserve your help?

Sure, but by the same token, should ASR be held accountable for dummies we haven't been able to help yet?

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

WRT #1, you should be cautious with that generalization because most of the time when I see that it's in response to a thread where a person asks if they should replace their current dac with some new dac to improve the SQ of their system. Folks will respond with "you probably wouldn't even hear a difference between an Apple dongle and that new dac so likely not necessary". In other words, it's usually people giving good advice which will save someone from spending money they don't need to spend. I don't see many occurrences of people recommending Apple dongles over other good and reasonably priced dacs the way you suggest.

It would be great to see some examples of some of these situations where people are supposedly valuing SINAD over all else because I'd be willing to bet they are actually quite rare...and probably come down to situations where it's been established that there's no functional difference and no real price difference (or the lower SINAD device is actually MORE costly) between two items at which point, sure...why not use SINAD as the deciding factor.

That's not a generalization. I did state that it is not a frequent occurrence, it is something said by a rare few but from one time to another, enough for me to spot it. I'm cool with people confirming others that those DACs sound the same like you said, along with buying/selling recommendations and such, I think it's good advice too. What I talked in that specific #1 is even if a product works as it described, or passed our measurement test it still gets criticized and unfairly compared by some, the latest topic I can think of is the Mojo 2. Also in my previous comment I did say some didn't stop to think there are different device classes for different purposes, for an example if there's a p/p comparison and apple dongle is used as standard it will obviously win over like 99,99% products measured here so what's the point? especially when our recommendation system is more about actual performance, not price or prestigious levels.
I cannot provide url to every single time I've seen a comment in the way I mentioned, but at least there's one I can remember of (because I commented there). Though I do want to emphasis that I agree with you, it doesn't happen alot https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-vmv-d3-review-r2r-dac.30277/page-4


Sorry if it was lengthy, my TL/DR is I think there's nothing wrong with ASR and ASR is helping audio enthusiasts alot but like every other thing bad impressions can be made by the minority, in this case the unfair comparison and criticism, or casual mockery of audiophools and so by the few can generate a bad image. So I don't think it's always the readers fault for not digging deep enough or not having a better understanding of what we are doing here.

edit: forget to refer to the sinad part you wrote, yeah I have no issue with that, it's a fair and objective system.

 

[lecriquet]

Sure, but by the same token, should ASR be held accountable for dummies we haven't been able to help yet?

It is not what I said but, of course, ASR cannot be responsible for them

 

[DWI]

Sure, but by the same token, should ASR be held accountable for dummies we haven't been able to help yet?

That's the definition of snobbery - thinking you know what's best for other people.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

That's the definition of snobbery - thinking you know what's best for other people.

Not sure I understand what you mean...

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I cannot provide url to every single time I've seen a comment in the way I mentioned, but at least there's one I can remember of (because I commented there). Though I do want to emphasis that I agree with you, it doesn't happen alot https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-vmv-d3-review-r2r-dac.30277/page-4

I would suggest that that reference to the dongle is not intended as a serious recommendation of the dongle over the dac. It's a largely-humorous response to the other poster noting that there are dacs costing 10% as much that measure better. "Hahaha, 10%? Try 0.25%!" The dac in question is a $3500 (!!!) dac that has fairly mediocre performance.

 

[BinkieHuckerback]

That's the definition of snobbery - thinking you know what's best for other people.

That's not the definition of snobbery.

 

[ryanosaur]

There is a lot going on here and is too much to unpack.
I swim in the AH pool as well as at AVS. Everybody has a little something to offer, and everybody has their own quirks that detract a bit. *shugs
People here are unhappy about that video. People at the other forums are grumping about this one... (Hell, there's been 2-3 pages (again) on the AVS HTP-1 Owners thread about Amir's review. (Still a topic! ))
And the sun will come up in the morning.

Something that is conveniently being left out of the conversation is Absolutism. Objectivity v. Subjectivity... and how Absolute can you be?

I think the measurements and listening being done by the Team at AH, by Amir, by Erin are all very respectable. Do I always agree? No. Do I have to agree? Hell No!
But I respect what is said and try to understand the thought process behind it.

It's no different, frankly, that the politics that drive the AH Steam Vent all too frequently. (I occasionally chime in there, but seldom for long, and I find most of the political topics relatively pointless rants. Regardles...) The thing is that you have Absolutist attitudes driving that content, for better or worse. And its not much different than the arguments I read in the three Audio Forums.
I don't know how many times I see complaints about the cost of a Speaker or Electronic Device that is rated as a good value proposition. And it may be a great value based on engineering and Fit & Finish, but not within a Kraft Mac'n'cheese budget. Who cares?
The Absolutists.

I cannot defend what Gene said, or why. The core group of Audio-heads at AH should all fit in here just as well, and several are here. One guy I am friends with over there has fed Erin Speakers for measuring, and I've seen a few talk about sending gear here, as well. A majority believe in science and don't take any single measurement as something akin to gospel.
For myself, I think you find the balance point for what you need. The smart ones can weigh the pros and cons, consider their budget and goals, and make a purchase decision for themselves or recommendation for others that is sound and appropriate. (No different than the conversation above about the $800 36w Dac/Amp... in the right scenario, it is completely appropriate )

Turning around, however, and bashing AH or storming the HTP-1 Owners Thread is no different in terms of being Absolutist.

More than anything, while we may be in a golden age of equipment options and "potential" availability, we are also seeing some of the highest prices due to everything else that is taking place in the world. Where political pundits are going to complain ceaselessly about the two most recent administrations, their policies, and the real world effects, the simple fact remains that it isn't going to change anything overnight.
I'd rather see that energy put back into furthering our collective interest in High Quality Audio Reproduction. Whether it is a Speaker that I can afford or never afford doesn't matter. Whether it is a discussion of the efficacy of SINAD or THD+N as a standalone measurement doesn't matter.
What should matter is that we stop arguing about these things and revel in creating a better environment for Hi Fi tomorrow and everyday thereafter.

 

[DWI]

Not sure I understand what you mean...

A few definitions of SNOB:

1. a person with an exaggerated respect for high social position or wealth who seeks to associate with social superiors and looks down on those regarded as socially inferior.

2. Snob is a pejorative term for a person who believes there is a correlation between social status (including physical appearance) and human worth.[1] Snob also refers to a person who feels superiority over those from lower social classes, education levels, or other social areas.

Anyone who believes measurements are all-important and anyone who doesn't are inferior (dummies - to use your word) is being a snob.

In that sense ASR is the definition of snobbery, which is why the guy Gene referred to ASR.

The lady said at the very beginning that rather than fighting their own corner, if people accepted there were other approaches that for other people are equally valid, there would be less confrontation.

@ryanosaur above pretty much nails it. Any form of absolutism is snobbery.

 

[BinkieHuckerback]

What have audio measurements got to do with social status?

 

[sergeauckland]

What about people who are juste dumb. Who see all those numbers and graphs and just don't understand.
they don't deserve your help?

Of course we should help those who don't know but who wish to learn. sadly, too many who don't know also don't want to know. The wilfully ignorant, as I call them. Best leave those to the other forums, where they'll find solace in the similarly ignorant.

S

 

[coonmanx]

Lots of self procalimed audio experts on the internet these days. I started watching that video but lost interest after about ten minutes time. It just seemed to be pretty self serving and not much else. YMMV...

 

[Thomas savage]

One has to be mindful of reverse snobbery.

 

[DWI]

That's not the definition of snobbery.

It's implicit in snobbery. Any form of superiority complex ... and it's even worse if you can think you can cure other people of their inferiority. They'll just deride you for it.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

A few definitions of SNOB:

1. a person with an exaggerated respect for high social position or wealth who seeks to associate with social superiors and looks down on those regarded as socially inferior.

2. Snob is a pejorative term for a person who believes there is a correlation between social status (including physical appearance) and human worth.[1] Snob also refers to a person who feels superiority over those from lower social classes, education levels, or other social areas.

Anyone who believes measurements are all-important and anyone who doesn't are inferior (dummies - to use your word) is being a snob.

In that sense ASR is the definition of snobbery, which is why the guy Gene referred to ASR.

The lady said at the very beginning that rather than fighting their own corner, if people accepted there were other approaches that for other people are equally valid, there would be less confrontation.

@ryanosaur above pretty much nails it. Any form of absolutism is snobbery.

well first of all, my comment was intended sort of "tongue-in-cheek"...I probably should have put dummies in ironic quotes. Sorry.

But as far as I'm concerned, ASR is really the opposite of snobbery. This site advocates for spending no more than necessary (based on an objective assessment of the equipment) to get what you need. "Snobbery" to me is evident on the sites that advocate for the idea that spending huge amounts on high end components is the route that must be followed to get upper-echelon sound reproduction. Any device that's more expensive than the previous device gets an even more positive review based on nothing more than the unchallenged ears of the reviewer. That's snobbery to me...

 

[antcollinet]

#1 - I've only really seen that when something at "audiophile level" high price performs poorly. Then it is often pointed out that if apple can create a device at $10 with good measurements (note - not just sinad, that is NOT the only thing measured here), that anyone selling something at that high price level ought not to be doing so with even below average measurements - let alone some of the travesties we've seen. It is not ignoring other aspects - features etc - to point out that poor measurements in over priced kit is no longer acceptable regardless of what else they bring to the table.

#2 - Agreed. Rudeness is not acceptable.

 

[BinkieHuckerback]

'Condescending' fits the bill better than 'snobbery'.