"Is Audiophile Snobbery Ruining our Hobby ?"

[Vacceo]

SINAD is an indication of engineering excellence, but that excellence may not come with the features you need. Or may come at a price you cannot afford...

This has been said again and again, so a reader not considering all the factors of a review is on the reader, not on ASR.

 

[Mart68]

SINAD is an indication of engineering excellence, but that excellence may not come with the features you need. Or may come at a price you cannot afford...

This has been said again and again, so a reader not considering all the factors of a review is on the reader, not on ASR.

Agreed but many don't read they just look at the panther and the SINAD rank.

They don't understand that the context is different from what they are used to looking at.

They also think all DACs sound different and that there is a sliding scale from very poor to excellent sound quality and that's what the SINAD chart shows.

You tell them the top ranked DAC and the bottom ranked DAC will sound identical to most people in most systems and they just won't have it. It's not what they have been taught to believe by decades of reading magazine reviews.

It also doesn't help that critics of ASR reinforce the falsehood by claiming ASR just relies on 'one measurement..'

 

[Vacceo]

Agreed but many don't read they just look at the panther and the SINAD rank.

They don't understand that the context is different from what they are used to looking at.

They also think all DACs sound different and that there is a sliding scale from very poor to excellent sound quality and that's what the SINAD chart shows.

You tell them the top ranked DAC and the bottom ranked DAC will sound identical to most people in most systems and they just won't have it. It's not what they have been taught to believe by decades of reading magazine reviews.

It also doesn't help that critics of ASR reinforce the falsehood by claiming ASR just relies on 'one measurement..'

The comments about discounting the aesthetics are particularly infuriating. I have red a ton of Amir´s reviews (and other people over here) being very open about visually pleasant design and well-finished boxes or cabinets. I have also red people on these forums talk a lot about pleasant shapes, designs, good in room visual integration...

Also, the part of "not listening" is a joke. Damn, I got kind of obssessed with mids over the years because thanks to flat sounding speakers, I realized the kind of stuff I listen to (Extreme Metal), without mids, does not sound whole and well pieced together while a traditional V shape equalization hides a lot of musical quality.

No, I don´t listen to graphs, graphs tell me what the system is stealing from me when I play some, let´s say, Emperor. I guess the audio world is, just like philosophy or political theory, a kind of world that really needs a bit time and effort to really extract what is really about.

 

[Mart68]

The comments about discounting the aesthetics are particularly infuriating. I have red a ton of Amir´s reviews (and other people over here) being very open about visually pleasant design and well-finished boxes or cabinets. I have also red people on these forums talk a lot about pleasant shapes, designs, good in room visual integration...

Also, the part of "not listening" is a joke. .

Agree, I bought both my DACs because I like the orange displays.

And it's always pointed out that if you want a subjective opinion on sound quality of an item there's a million other places you can get that, but very few where they measure the thing.

The snobbery stuff does not ruin it for me, I actually find it pretty funny when people with five grand (or more!) DACs disparage Topping and the like.

Seems to me it is the other way around, the people who place their faith in their expensive products seem concerned that the cheap stuff (and ASR) is ruining their hobby. (whatever that is).

 

[ahofer]

I don’t know about *snobbery* per se, but high end audio woo’s focus on unscientific and unproven properties has made audio retail nearly unbearable.

 

[Vini darko]

Ruining the hobby what nonsense. Hifi has never been so accessible. We live in a gloden age.

 

[formula 977]

Mrs. Loathecliff innocently ruined a Frenchman's audio life recently when he heard 'Live at the Pershing' on our cobbled-together system by saying:- "It sounds better in mono doesn't it?"
Does that count?

I suspect Mrs. Loathecliff did that intentionally. Does it count? Probably not because the Frenchman would have had something else and more to complain about without being goaded.

 

[Shadrach]

I don't think it is.
Snobbery in the audio world has been about for as long as I can remember.
Some people use it as a show of their wealth. People do this in lots of areas.
What I object to is the because it cost a lot of money it necessarily performs better.
With motor bikes for example which was once one of my hobbies the answer was pretty simple. Lets race!
Not quite so simple with audio unfortunately because lets measure will almost always in such discusssions end up with the measurements don't tell the whole story.
I don't even mind those that say their system sounds better than such and such. They hear it. It doesn't matter if it's all in the mind or not.
I've heard some pretty impressive sounding systems. What tends to happen is once you've got past the "look how loud it goes" bit and sat down quitely and listened to track one knows well, the quality of the sound becomes more apparent and not much different from the well measuring system that cost considerably less.

 

[sergeauckland]

Agreed but many don't read they just look at the panther and the SINAD rank.

They don't understand that the context is different from what they are used to looking at.

They also think all DACs sound different and that there is a sliding scale from very poor to excellent sound quality and that's what the SINAD chart shows.

You tell them the top ranked DAC and the bottom ranked DAC will sound identical to most people in most systems and they just won't have it. It's not what they have been taught to believe by decades of reading magazine reviews.

It also doesn't help that critics of ASR reinforce the falsehood by claiming ASR just relies on 'one measurement..'

This is exactly what I meant above by technical ignorance. For years now magazines have encouraged a belief in one's own ears and a disregard for technical measurements. Anyone who understand the engineering will know that there can't be any difference in sound between most DACs or amplifiers or CD players or streamers regardless of price as both are transparent, therefore identical. That doesn't fit with magazines' purpose, that of supporting manufacturers, who need punters to believe that paying more sounds better.

ASR performs an excellent service in debunking the 'costs more sounds better' theme, but doesn't help itself by panthers or ranking by SINAD.

S.

 

[DSJR]

UK based bods here may agree or not, but I feel the UK audiophile industry today is built on high prices, brand snobbery and long term 'desirability' of certain makers with 'upgrade ladders' now fueled by newly retired old boys like me but with pension payouts to spend on large car leases and stereo gear from mekers they couldn't afford forty years ago. We never really had a home theatre separates boom here since the early noughties (our rooms are too damned small I reckon), so the mid price market has gone over to once pricey used gear instead. the starter level is the Richer Sounds chain I think and some real bargains can be had if you're careful.

 

[Zensō]

The snobbery is mildly amusing, if not outright annoying. I avoid the silliness by using mostly pro audio and consumer gear.

 

[Music1969]

Multitone plot is far more interesting than single tone SINAD plot

 

[pma]

ASR amplifier reviews do not tell about reliability and possible issues and caveats, which could have been done by harder test conditions, especially loading and longterm testing. Though there is quite a wide set of selected measurements, to me the amplifier reviews do not tell much and I am losing interest to read them. Harder testing could also help the common users. And, I cannot l lose the feeling that some manufacturers just use ASR as a marketing platform and kind of their support.

 

[SIY]

I'm not sure what "the hobby" means.

 

[DMill]

This is exactly what I meant above by technical ignorance. For years now magazines have encouraged a belief in one's own ears and a disregard for technical measurements. Anyone who understand the engineering will know that there can't be any difference in sound between most DACs or amplifiers or CD players or streamers regardless of price as both are transparent, therefore identical. That doesn't fit with magazines' purpose, that of supporting manufacturers, who need punters to believe that paying more sounds better.

ASR performs an excellent service in debunking the 'costs more sounds better' theme, but doesn't help itself by panthers or ranking by SINAD.

S.

I'll add to your post...

Even if SINAD was the holy grail, which we all know it isn't, the differences between the numbers is miniscule. The SMSL DAC just reviewed measured a 120 dB SINAD which was declared SOTA. But if you look at the graph there are 14 other DACs that have a higher score - the highest measuring a 123 dB. 2% difference x something I can't hear anyway = Nothing.

 

[Mojo Warrior]

IMO ASR is about price vs performance.

Consumers deserve to know what they are purchasing in terms of manufacturer claims which always requires (IMO) verification. The publication Consumer Reports was the model of product evaluation.

Listening is subjective and personal.

 

[DVDdoug]

My analysis -

It's ALWAYS been somewhat snobbish/elitist, and audiophiles have always been a bit NUTS. In the early days it was an expensive luxury. The costs came down and the equipment got better the 1970's (mostly because of solid state electronics) and the studio recording equipment became very good. The "kids" were buying good stereos but the "audiophiles" were still nuts.

I once posted a question on HydrogenAudio to Arnold B. Krueger (inventor of the ABX box), asking him if he expected so much controversy. He said yes. So he knew all of those golden-ears were full-of-it and I guess he knew they would never admit it. I don't understand the controversy because ABX seems perfectly logical to me.

I think what really killed the hobby was the introduction of the CD which "solved" noise, distortion, and frequency response. Most of the normal people who just love good sound stopped buying audio magazines (and stopped constantly upgrading equipment) and they lost interest in the "hobby", while still enjoying good sound. That left the hobby dominated by the old vinyl & tube guys.

The same thing happened to photography as a hobby. An iPhone is better than most film cameras and you don't have to deal with the film (or the associated delay) and digital photos can be digitally edited, etc.

...I never considered myself to be a "full-audiophile" because I've always been cost-conscious. But I was a snob when it came to lossy compression. I'd heard some lousy-sounding MP3s (maybe first on a "cheap" DJ setup) and I didn't believe they could be "CD quality". But now, I realize that most of the time with a good MP3, there is no audible difference, or you have to listen very carefully to hear a difference. Plus, some of the BEST sounding music I own is on concert DVDs with 5.1 channel Dolby AC3 or DTS (both lossy formats).

 

[Zensō]

I think what really killed the hobby was the introduction of the CD which "solved" noise, distortion, and frequency response. Most of the normal people who just love good sound stopped buying audio magazines (and stopped constantly upgrading equipment) and they lost interest in the "hobby", while still enjoying good sound. That left the hobby dominated by the old vinyl & tube guys.

I agree. It appears many audiophiles invent problems that don’t exist just to have something to buy. Of course, the manufacturers are more than happy to oblige.

 

[sergeauckland]

I agree. It appears many audiophiles invent problems that don’t exist just to have something to buy. Of course, the manufacturers are more than happy to oblige.

And snake-oil manufacturers invent problems their products alone can solve. (CD and LP demagnetisers?)

Of course ignorant audiophiles are happy to oblige by buying.

S.

 

[Vacceo]

Perhaps this is the moment to ask something technical about gear changes.

From what I have consistently reading, electronics for digital audio are a non-issue at this point of time: crystaline reproduction is possible even at low prices.

However, have speakers changed a lot in the last 20 years?