Is ASR missing the point? Why still focus on Dacs?

[Jungstar]

ASR has done a massive undertaking, and I would like to start by acknowledging that. So many "badly designed products" has been exposed and a lot more quality thinking has gone into thinking critically about audio and perception vs measureability.

Several successes has also seen the light - first 100 usd DACs could measure perfectly and even beat DACS that cost 1000s of USD. The same goes for streamers in the digital domain with perfect sub 140 db SINAD. Later, we got very good performing but entry-level Class D amplifiers - especially the Topping PA3/5 and all the TPA3255 DACs with intelligent feedback. Several people on ASR have suggested that DACs and AMPs are now "Solved".

So far so good !

But my questions are: why do we still keep testing DACs if we know that the majority is "Good enough" and that 100-200 units perform world-class? Case closed.

Topping D10S balanced:

Many amplifiers do not do that well- it seems - if you dont want an affordable TI class D amb, you will need to get creative, or find those rare Class AB amps that also measure pretty well.

What about speakers? Should we not measure a lot more speakers? There are over 1,000 DACs more measured on ASR - and "only" a few hundred speakers. What about subwoofers? Subs are the most potent upgrade anyone can make to their system, which will have an instant, measurable, and noticeable effect on the sound.

But why stop there - what about measuring room treatment? Who cares about another 2 db, if your room is totally crap and full of reverb. We should be testing and developing testing methodologies on how we measure room treatment so that we can one day conclude room problems as "Problem Solved". Currently, it is a pure snake oil industry, and nobody knows what is performing.

Lastly, we should get into "audiophile ear cleaning" and "ear measurements" - my company does some IT work with ear doctors, and many people in the HiFi age, over 50 has 10s of dB differences on their ears. I simply cannot understand that we spend so much time on DACs (OK, I do get it, I like them too, but still) we should get our ears checked before we start discussing crazy stuff and splitting dBs in HiFi. There seems to be a stigma about getting the hearing checked. But maybe you just have dirty ears and they need a little oil for cleaning.

Here is an example of a chat about the loss of hearing in some frequencies - do you wanna discuss DAC quality and audio with that person? Almost nobody at 40, has a "flat hearing". But what if you could use DSP to fix it - that is basically what a hearing aid are doing.

The above ear needs some help - no DAC is gonna fix that

The Rooms are also a "mess" - and in my opinion, we should measure a lot more here and understand what can be done in room EQ and what are time domain issues.

So do ASR need a new direction? In my opinion, Yes, or at least celebrate some wins and move on to the most critical. Otherwise, ASR will end up discussing the "Topping 9000" DAC in a few years.

But what do you think is missing in the Community?

 

[101geo]

As a relative newbie to this forum I have found this place quite refreshing. I have been buying and selling used gear since the early 90's so my hobby is self sustaining but having bought and sold many £1000+ cables and DACs and I'm relieved that the "Emperors new clothes" cult is indeed, a cult. I still prefer certain speakers and vinyl cartridges over others but I can understand why there are differences but I never could quite hear the differences in cables and DAC's and to a lesser extent amplifiers. I'm still trying to get out of the mindset that my ears must not be up to spec because many can hear stuff I can't. Thanks to this place I can relax and know I was right all along. Long may it continue and the more cheap DAC's and other equipment that we see reviewed on here the better.

 

[JeffS7444]

DACs and chip amps are easier to ship to Amir.

 

[Blueprint]

I don’t find that ASR is overgrown with DAC discussion. It’s just that they’re measurable and the measurement threads are great fun, eye-catching, and the first thing most people will look at when they pop onto the forum is a new review. The reviews are terrific and well presented by all those that do them.

I also think it’s important to continue reviewing things like DACs, even if the majority of them are now basically transparent, because not all are. And we need to know as a community which ones aren’t.

 

[MAB]

As a relative newbie to this forum I have found this place quite refreshing. I have been buying and selling used gear since the early 90's so my hobby is self sustaining but having bought and sold many £1000+ cables and DACs and I'm relieved that the "Emperors new clothes" cult is indeed, a cult. I still prefer certain speakers and vinyl cartridges over others but I can understand why there are differences but I never could quite hear the differences in cables and DAC's and to a lesser extent amplifiers. I'm still trying to get out of the mindset that my ears must not be up to spec because many can hear stuff I can't. Thanks to this place I can relax and know I was right all along. Long may it continue and the more cheap DAC's and other equipment that we see reviewed on here the better.

Your ears are likely better than you fear. More, the people claiming to hear stuff you can't likely have worse hearing then they can imagine, and no better or worse than your or my hearing.

 

[Purité Audio]

I believe Amir works pretty hard as it is, and he has completely disrupted the traditional Hi-Fi paradigm single handed.
Not too shabby for one guy.
Keith

 

[Mojo Warrior]

Send in whatever you would like to be tested

 

[peng]

It is much easier for ASR to obtain DACs for testing. I think that is one of the main reasons.

 

[VintageFlanker]

why do we still keep testing DACs

@amirm may only test what is sent to him.

 

[Purité Audio]

It is the way.
Keith

 

[Frank Dernie]

ASR has done a massive undertaking, and I would like to start by acknowledging that. So many "badly designed products" has been exposed and a lot more quality thinking has gone into thinking critically about audio and perception vs measureability.

Several successes has also seen the light - first 100 usd DACs could measure perfectly and even beat DACS that cost 1000s of USD. The same goes for streamers in the digital domain with perfect sub 140 db SINAD. Later, we got very good performing but entry-level Class D amplifiers - especially the Topping PA3/5 and all the TPA3255 DACs with intelligent feedback. Several people have on ASR2uo even suggested that it is "problem solved" and that DACs and AMPs are not "Solved".

So far so good !

But my questions - why do we still keep testing DACs - if we know that the majority is "Good enough" and that 100-200 units perform world class. Case closed.

Topping D10S balanced:
View attachment 473821

Many amplifiers do not do that well- it seems - if you dont want an affordable TI class D amb, you will need to get creative, or find those rare Class AB amps that also measure pretty well.

What about speakers? Should we not measure a lot more speakers? There are over 1,000 DACs more measured on ASR - and "only" a few hundred speakers. What about subwoofers? Subs are the most potent upgrade anyone can make to their system, which will have an instant, measurable, and noticeable effect on the sound.

But why stop there - what about measuring room treatment? Who cares about another 2 db, if your room is totally crap and full of reverb. We should be testing and developing testing methodologies on how we measure room treatment so that we can one day conclude room problems as "Problem Solved". Currently, it is a pure snake oil industry, and nobody knows what is performing.

Lastly, we should get into "audiophile ear cleaning" and "ear measurements" - my company does some IT work with ear doctors and many people in the HiFi age, over 50 has 10s of dB differences on their ears. I simply cannot understand that we spend so much time on DACs (OK, I do get it, I like them too, but still) we should get our ears checked before we start discussing crazy stuff and splitting dBs in HiFi. There seems to be a stigma about getting the hearing checked. But maybe you just have dirty ears and they need a little oil for cleaning.

Here is an example of a chat about the loss of hearing in some frequencies - do you wanna discuss DAC quality and audio with that person? Almost nobody at 40, has a "flat hearing". But what if you could use DSP to fix it - that is basically what a hearing aid are doing.

View attachment 473820

The above ear needs some help - no DAC is gonna fix that

The Rooms are also a "mess" - and in my opinion, we should measure a lot more here and understand what can be done in room EQ and what are time domain issues.

View attachment 473831

So do ASR need a new direction? In my opinion, Yes, or at least celebrate some wins and move on to the most critical. Otherwise, ASR will end up discussing the "Topping 9000" DAC in a few years.

But what do you think is missing in the Community?

2 things.

If there is something you would like testing send it to Amir and he will test it. People often send DACs...

you listen to your stereo with the same ears you use to listen to conversation and live music. It makes no sense to me to alter a HiFi to make it sound to you like it might have done 20 years ago, the right place for hearing compensation is not in a music reproducer.

 

[egellings]

ASR has done a massive undertaking, and I would like to start by acknowledging that. So many "badly designed products" has been exposed and a lot more quality thinking has gone into thinking critically about audio and perception vs measureability.

Several successes has also seen the light - first 100 usd DACs could measure perfectly and even beat DACS that cost 1000s of USD. The same goes for streamers in the digital domain with perfect sub 140 db SINAD. Later, we got very good performing but entry-level Class D amplifiers - especially the Topping PA3/5 and all the TPA3255 DACs with intelligent feedback. Several people on ASR have suggested that DACs and AMPs are now "Solved".

So far so good !

But my questions are: why do we still keep testing DACs if we know that the majority is "Good enough" and that 100-200 units perform world-class? Case closed.

Topping D10S balanced:
View attachment 473821

Many amplifiers do not do that well- it seems - if you dont want an affordable TI class D amb, you will need to get creative, or find those rare Class AB amps that also measure pretty well.

What about speakers? Should we not measure a lot more speakers? There are over 1,000 DACs more measured on ASR - and "only" a few hundred speakers. What about subwoofers? Subs are the most potent upgrade anyone can make to their system, which will have an instant, measurable, and noticeable effect on the sound.

But why stop there - what about measuring room treatment? Who cares about another 2 db, if your room is totally crap and full of reverb. We should be testing and developing testing methodologies on how we measure room treatment so that we can one day conclude room problems as "Problem Solved". Currently, it is a pure snake oil industry, and nobody knows what is performing.

Lastly, we should get into "audiophile ear cleaning" and "ear measurements" - my company does some IT work with ear doctors, and many people in the HiFi age, over 50 has 10s of dB differences on their ears. I simply cannot understand that we spend so much time on DACs (OK, I do get it, I like them too, but still) we should get our ears checked before we start discussing crazy stuff and splitting dBs in HiFi. There seems to be a stigma about getting the hearing checked. But maybe you just have dirty ears and they need a little oil for cleaning.

Here is an example of a chat about the loss of hearing in some frequencies - do you wanna discuss DAC quality and audio with that person? Almost nobody at 40, has a "flat hearing". But what if you could use DSP to fix it - that is basically what a hearing aid are doing.

View attachment 473820

The above ear needs some help - no DAC is gonna fix that

The Rooms are also a "mess" - and in my opinion, we should measure a lot more here and understand what can be done in room EQ and what are time domain issues.

View attachment 473831

So do ASR need a new direction? In my opinion, Yes, or at least celebrate some wins and move on to the most critical. Otherwise, ASR will end up discussing the "Topping 9000" DAC in a few years.

But what do you think is missing in the Community?

The DAC, and living room digital audio in general, is a solved problem. Once it gets so good that an improvement in technical performance is no longer audible, then it's game over, except for maybe non-listening type laboratory use. No need to ask for a drop forge when a tack hammer is all that is needed.

 

[Keith_W]

"Focus" implies that it is intentional. It isn't quite intentional. ASR depends on people sending stuff to Amir to test. There may be occasions where he actually buys the equipment he reviews, or manufacturers might approach him.

 

[pablolie]

DACs are easy. And they are replaceable at relatively low cost. Which predisposes DACs to upgradeatitis. But I must admit I no longer read the latest DAC reviews - I will not be interested until they come with feature sets that makes them more intelligent and versatile (integrated sub out with configurable xover and such).

But as others stated, if you want something tested and Amir agrees, by all means send it in. I'd gladly contribute to a fund that is there to help people ship their equipment for testing, professionally and safely.

And one thing I have been thinking about more and more... why don't we rebel and collectively stop buying equipment that doesn't come with neutral third party basic measurements that validate competent engineering? It clearly seems the next evolutionary step if audio buyers wake up and stop sniffing audio boutique glue. And in no way am I implying manufacturers should brown-nose themselves into approval and the usual glamorous reviews, I mean pass a few basic tests by a neutral third party that prove a fundamentally solid design.

 

[Audiovibes]

With each product reviewed, 1000’s of people are directed to this forum from Google searches. This increases traffic to the forum. More traffic to the forum increases the value of the forum. And adds additional members.

So although most people learn nothing about just another transparent DAC review, there is benefit to the forum.

 

[Sokel]

It's about backlog.
When Amir's storage is flooded with waves of new DACs every month or so anything else gets later and later.
Even when people want to send stuff they may count a month or so to see them measured, that's a big no for some.

The time that budget DACs found their way to be advertised here, the game has set.
It WILL slow down, I mean what's left to build if it's already solved and flooded beyond any meaningful measure?

 

[617]

Nerds mostly care about headphone amps, dacs and headphones because they are nerds, listening to female vocalists behind their multimonitor setups, only nerds care about measurements, so we see measurements of nerd products. The number of people who use wired headphones nowadays is small, I have several overear sennheisers and I never use them anymore because ANC allows me to do things like be not at my computer or stereo system and literally touch grass if I decide to go to the park.

Meanwhile how many subwoofer reviews have we seen? Some cool high output speakers though.

Same thing with phono. Good phono preamps with different compensation curves and low noise are rare and actually make an audible impact for people who like vinyl, but people who like vinyl don't generally care about measurements, because if they did, they wouldn't listen to an analog recording medium. Consequently - not many phono reviews, although there are enough to make good buying decisions.

Anyway to reiterate the above, amir measures what people send in. He has measured some amazing products across all product categories. Erin has measured some good speakers as well.

 

[Timcognito]

There is no point or that is not the point being missed. He tests what he gets and what his equipment can handle. Lets face it, those with $10k plus devices will not take a chance that the measurements are mediocre or sub par. The fact that transducers have the most variability is well known as most are not developed with NFS equipment. I'm sure that if Amir wanted to start a business measuring for companies developing speakers and not publishing their data he would make money. That's not his interest and it is refreshing that he shares his passion, time and effort for free, with no subscription or advertising. The odd thing is how a lot of people want to control what he does for free or are indignant when he becomes distributor for a speaker company with brother and question his integrity after all he has done for the industry. Even non commercial TV and radio have pledge drives and such, but none of that here. Please let your thoughts for a better site be known but don't be indignant or condescending, even if you don't agree with results or methods at ASR.

 

[617]

it is refreshing that he shares his passion, time and effort for free, with no subscription or advertising.

It is beyond refreshing, it's totally unprecedented. People really complaining about asciilabs? When they produced such exceptional products?

 

[amirm]

With each product reviewed, 1000’s of people are directed to this forum from Google searches. This increases traffic to the forum. More traffic to the forum increases the value of the forum. And adds additional members.

So although most people learn nothing about just another transparent DAC review, there is benefit to the forum.

This is a key point. It is just our voice against massive number of non-science based sites posting random reviews of DACs. If we stop, then those rank to the top of google search and AI summaries. Folks will go back to believing those things because they are universal in their approach.

The other point is that DACs have improved so much because we bring marketing power to anything that performs well. If we stop, then there is little motivation for those companies to keep the standards high. I have already seen some companies cater to audiophile beliefs even though they have traditionally been in our camp.

There are also unique offerings in DACs like the SMSL DS20 I just post. I also just bought an $11 (?) USB to XLR "cable." I don't think anyone could have predicted the performance of these products.

Finally, if someone wants to buy a product, they look for reviews of that product. They are not going to come here, read hundreds of posts/reviews to see which end is up. You can't confuse what the regulars do/know in the forum to the interest of the general population. My memory is hazy but I think more than 50% of our traffic comes from search engines.

All of this said, DACs do get much lower priority from me than it used to. Manufacturers are sending fewer of them and when they do, they often sit here waiting a long time for a review. Per above, I still test them from time to time.