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Is Anyone Using a DEQ2496 As A Dynamic Tone Control?

Wombat

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I was listening to a just received "Target' copy of Donald Fagen's Nightfly CD, Japan pressing( The 1983 one).
I compared it, sighted , to a German CD(2000) pressing and couldn't detect any difference except the Target disc is usually much more $$$$s.
(I got mine (EXC. Cond.) for $USD9 delivered - patience and persistence can pay off).

This was not surprising as, until recently, the same digital masters were used for all releases.

Online comments say that this recording is a bit sparse on cd and vinyl has more bass. Given that bass tends to be mono'd on vinyl that may be so. I have the original vinyl and feel this may be so but I haven't played the LP in more than 20+ years.

Where is this heading? Well, I turned up the volume a bit and the bass was as I remembered it, not heaps but ample and clean. I played music louder, as a matter of course, when I was younger. Because I usually play music at a lower level nowadays, this 'clean' recording has reminded me of the value of dynamic tone control for lower level playing

Opinions and tips re the DEQ2496 and dynamic tone control are welcome. :)
 
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L5730

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In my opinion this album sounds very sterile and lacks a bit of 'analogue' colouration. I have the 78.5/84.5/74.1 ... version. Can't recall disc identifying specifics, it's ripped to HDD.
It is rather handy to hear issues with headphones or such. Without a bit of EQ to tame a peak, my new Takstar Pro82v1 make I.G.Y a bit too sharp to play at any volume much above a whisper.

Take a look at equal loudness plots and other graphical presentations of how we hear.

This thing?
Looks interesting.

I played around with some dynamic EQ VST some while back. I was convinced it was amazing, and then I properly listened to just a normal parametric EQ. I preferred the sound without the dynamic stuff.
 

pkane

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I was listening to a just received "Target' copy of Donald Fagen's Nightfly CD, Japan pressing( The 1983 one).
I compared it, sighted , to a German CD(2000) pressing and couldn't detect any difference except the Target disc is usually much more $$$$s.
(I got mine (EXC. Cond.) for $USD9 delivered - patience and persistence can pay off).

This was not surprising as, until recently, the same digital masters were used for all releases.

Online comments say that this recording is a bit sparse on cd and vinyl has more bass. Given that bass tends to be mono'd on vinyl that may be so. I have the original vinyl and feel this may be so but I haven't played the LP in more than 20+ years.

Where is this heading? Well, I turned up the volume a bit and the bass was as I remembered it, not heaps but ample and clean. I played music louder, as a matter of course, when I was younger. Because I usually play music at a lower level nowadays, this 'clean' recording has reminded me of the value of dynamic tone control for lower level playing

Opinions and tips re the DEQ2496 and dynamic tone control are welcome. :)

I tried this a few years ago, but found no setting that was satisfying. Not sure if this was just that I didn’t figure out how to configure it properly, or it just didn’t work on the material I tried.
 

b1daly

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Unless you play music at loud volumes, there is not much use for dynamics processing in the playback of commercial releases.

Something like the Fagen album is going to have very well controlled dynamics across the frequency spectrum.

A regular EQ can be helpful for tuning your system, or for just adjusting the “ tone” of a particular album. For example, if you think an album is bass shy, just turning up the bass will generally be enough to correct it without deviating from the original intention to much.

At high SPLs, both playback systems and rooms can run into distortions that are enhanced around certain frequencies. So dynamics control can be useful.

In particular, having some kind of limiting on the low frequencies might allow for a more controlled playback at high SPL, because of the increased amount of power involved in reproducing low frequencies.
 

Hipper

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I would have thought for a dynamic tone control you would need a remote, or at least a knob that can be reached and easily adjusted. The Behringer has neither. It is operated by buttons and knobs, mostly quite small. The Dynamic EQ (DEQ), which I've never used, seems to work like this.

With the DEQ2496 though you can make all sorts of settings with the GEQ and PEQ which can then be stored in a memory and recalled for use.

The Behringer only has balanced XLR inputs and outputs. It is also a very complicated bit of kit. I would have thought there would be better solutions, such as some sort of tone control or simple EQ device.
 

pwjazz

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The Behringer has neither. It is operated by buttons and knobs, mostly quite small.

I don't own the unit, but as I understand it you can also control it via MIDI, which makes sense given that it's targeted at professionals.
 

Hipper

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I don't own the unit, but as I understand it you can also control it via MIDI, which makes sense given that it's targeted at professionals.

You are right. Another part of it I don't use!
 

MRC01

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I was listening to a just received "Target' copy of Donald Fagen's Nightfly CD, Japan pressing( The 1983 one). ... Opinions and tips re the DEQ2496 and dynamic tone control are welcome. :)
I use my DEQ2496 only for PEQ. It has internal DA and AD converters, but these are bypassed, making it a pure DSP if you use its digital inputs and outputs. It has many other DSP functions that I don't use, including control of dynamics in combination with EQ. Whether this could be used to build a custom "loudness" contour, I don't know.

The DEQ2496 is a really nice piece of kit. It's complex but does a lot and works well. Once you get the settings right, you can save them in named memory slots so it's easy to store a few different ones and switch between them. Also it has a real-time FFT display which can be useful for critical listening, like you hear/feel a low bass note, or castanets or a triangle, and want to see what frequencies are there. Or a recording sounds too bright or dull, or you play an old CD that sounds too bright and wonder if it has pre-emphasis, you can this in the FFT display.

All that said, for basic tone controls I don't use the DEQ2496. My preamp/DAC has simple tone controls implemented in DSP. Much easier: twist knob. Very retro back to the 70s before purist attitudes removed tone controls from preamps.

PS: I feel the same way about rock recordings. Most are thin and midrangy, probably because I don't listen to them loud enough. I usually apply some bass boost depending on the recording and level. With a few notable exceptions that are very well recorded, like Steven Wilson's remix of Yes albums, and some bands like Pink Floyd and Talking Heads, who consistently made better engineered recordings.
 
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Snarfie

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Did hear The Night Fly some years ago thru a Behring DEQ2496 Ultra-Curve Pro which sounded more balance an more bass. https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_deq2496_ultracurve_pro.htm
Eventualy i used Mathaudio room EQ incombination with Foobar2000 (for free) which made the Nightfly sounded much better. Think a Minidsp in combination with REW will do the same. All depending on your current room acoustics.
 
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xr100

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dynamic tone control

I would be very careful with dynamic processes in general, as they have the potential to have yield "pumping" effects etc.--i.e. the action of the dynamics processing is audibly irritating--as well as generating harmonic distortion (and, thus, for digital processes, aliasing.)

For low frequency dynamics processing to assist low level listening, you might consider using UPWARD expansion.

It looks something like this (BLUE line):

1581284575639.png



Rather than (YELLOW line) (regular compression):

1581284710204.png



In other words, the dynamics process "pushes up" the lower levels (below threshold), and then does nothing at high levels (above threshold), rather than...

…doing nothing at lower levels (below threshold) and then attenuating at high levels (above threshold.)

(Obviously adjusting "makeup gain" of the dynamics process as needed.)


BTW, I don't have a DEQ2496, and I've nothing against it being a Behringer product, but I'd be pretty amazed (not least given the age of the product) if its DSP is totally impeccable. For example, are the filters decramped or do they warp towards Nyquist? (Actually, I suppose at 96kHz it doesn't matter.) Having measured dozens of (VST, etc.) plug-ins, many of them behave in ways that they shouldn't and that are sometimes rather surprising...

Filter cramping towards Nyquist: (Sample rate: 48kHz)

1581285246622.png


Same filter without cramping:

1581285581260.png
 

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q3cpma

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I would be very careful with dynamic processes in general, as they have the potential to have yield "pumping" effects etc.--i.e. the action of the dynamics processing is audibly irritating--as well as generating harmonic distortion (and, thus, for digital processes, aliasing.)

For low frequency dynamics processing to assist low level listening, you might consider using UPWARD expansion.

It looks something like this (BLUE line):

View attachment 49395


Rather than (YELLOW line) (regular compression):

View attachment 49397


In other words, the dynamics process "pushes up" the lower levels (below threshold), and then does nothing at high levels (above threshold), rather than...

…doing nothing at lower levels (below threshold) and then attenuating at high levels (above threshold.)

(Obviously adjusting "makeup gain" of the dynamics process as needed.)


BTW, I don't have a DEQ2496, and I've nothing against it being a Behringer product, but I'd be pretty amazed (not least given the age of the product) if its DSP is totally impeccable. For example, are the filters decramped or do they warp towards Nyquist? (Actually, I suppose at 96kHz it doesn't matter.) Having measured dozens of (VST, etc.) plug-ins, many of them behave in ways that they shouldn't and that are sometimes rather surprising...

Filter cramping towards Nyquist: (Sample rate: 48kHz)

View attachment 49398

Same filter without cramping:

View attachment 49399
Your worries are understandable. Some US member should send his DEQ to Amir, since this is something way more interesting that the usual electronics.
 

pkane

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I would be very careful with dynamic processes in general, as they have the potential to have yield "pumping" effects etc.--i.e. the action of the dynamics processing is audibly irritating--as well as generating harmonic distortion (and, thus, for digital processes, aliasing.)

For low frequency dynamics processing to assist low level listening, you might consider using UPWARD expansion.

It looks something like this (BLUE line):

View attachment 49395


Rather than (YELLOW line) (regular compression):

View attachment 49397


In other words, the dynamics process "pushes up" the lower levels (below threshold), and then does nothing at high levels (above threshold), rather than...

…doing nothing at lower levels (below threshold) and then attenuating at high levels (above threshold.)

(Obviously adjusting "makeup gain" of the dynamics process as needed.)


BTW, I don't have a DEQ2496, and I've nothing against it being a Behringer product, but I'd be pretty amazed (not least given the age of the product) if its DSP is totally impeccable. For example, are the filters decramped or do they warp towards Nyquist? (Actually, I suppose at 96kHz it doesn't matter.) Having measured dozens of (VST, etc.) plug-ins, many of them behave in ways that they shouldn't and that are sometimes rather surprising...

Filter cramping towards Nyquist: (Sample rate: 48kHz)

View attachment 49398

Same filter without cramping:

View attachment 49399

I have one, but considering a few dozen different functions with many different configuration options for each, what would you suggest testing?
 

xr100

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I have one, but considering a few dozen different functions with many different configuration options for each, what would you suggest testing?

Would be good if you could test it. :)

Hmm, I'd test digital gain control, EQ frequency responses particularly looking towards Nyquist.

Effect of EQ (e.g. due to internal truncation), looking for quantization effects, and connected with that testing for limit cycles etc. (e.g. use HP filters.)

Dynamics processes--fast attack and release to see distortion, burst tones to get an idea of attack/release characteristics.
 
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SWL3600

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I've been using a DEQ2496 for about 5+ years now. I use the PEQ only. I've tried but have no use for all the other things the unit does.

I use it in the digital domain only. Digital in....digital out to an external DAC. This is the ticket with this thing. When I first got the unit, it took a day or three to dial it in and haven't changed anything since. Set it and forget it.

I really would not want to go without it. Using this PEQ in the digital realm in addition to proper room treatment is great.
 

xr100

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Effect of EQ (e.g. due to internal truncation), looking for quantization effects.

For example, here's the spectrum of a 30Hz 12dB/oct high pass filter fed with a sine wave:

1581291782403.png


And another capture of the same:

1581291793618.png



It moves to that pattern momentarily, then goes back to the first spectrum. (Albeit the "static" spectrum capture doesn't show that it's rather "noisy"...)

Here is the spectrum of another 12dB/oct high pass filter (64-bit float) fed with the same sine wave:

1581292130516.png
 
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SWL3600

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I'd also like to mention that I've had plenty 'middle of the road' analog EQ's in the past. I gave up on them long ago. The 2496 is dead silent. Zero noise period. For the price and believe it or not, a reliable product from Behringer.....this is a great deal.
 

xr100

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I'd also like to mention that I've had plenty 'middle of the road' analog EQ's in the past. I gave up on them long ago. The 2496 is dead silent. Zero noise period. For the price and believe it or not, a reliable product from Behringer.....this is a great deal.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that we don't want to look for "~perfection." :) There are lots of 64-bit float software EQs that (in terms of signal processing, not necessarily UI or filter types or control interaction) are effectively "perfect."
 

SWL3600

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Sure, but that doesn't mean that we don't want to look for "~perfection." :) There are lots of 64-bit float software EQs that (in terms of signal processing, not necessarily UI or filter types or control interaction) are effectively "perfect."
Sure. I've not tested it so my comments are based solely on how I hear it performing in my system. It would be cool and I would be really curious to find out how it actually tests out.
 

pkane

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BTW, I don't have a DEQ2496, and I've nothing against it being a Behringer product, but I'd be pretty amazed (not least given the age of the product) if its DSP is totally impeccable.

Trying to go through some measurements here. Let me know if there's anything specific you'd like me to test, there are just too many features and combinations of settings to do this thing justice.
 
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Wombat

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Trying to go through some measurements here. Let me know if there's anything specific you'd like me to test, there are just too many features and combinations of settings to do this thing justice.

You sure don't mess around. First set of results posted in new thread already. Thanks.

I replied in the new thread.:)
 
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