Is Amateur Piano Recording This Hard?

[amirm]

Oooh. Can you test the noise of the headphone jack?

It is hard as it is in completely different part of the house. That won't matter anyway as it has a very anemic headphone amp. I have the volume maxed out just to get decent dynamics out of it. Its speakers are pretty bad as well.

 

[DEF]

It is hard as it is in completely different part of the house. That won't matter anyway as it has a very anemic headphone amp. I have the volume maxed out just to get decent dynamics out of it. Its speakers are pretty bad as well.

I use PianoTeq 8 and APS Klasik 2020 hooked up to my RME ADI 2 DAC FS
It was really challenging to find convincing speakers for Piano because many times it just felt like I was listening to somebody playing, instead of I am playing.

 

[GXAlan]

It is hard as it is in completely different part of the house. That won't matter anyway as it has a very anemic headphone amp. I have the volume maxed out just to get decent dynamics out of it. Its speakers are pretty bad as well.

Darn. They hyped up their Onkyo collaboration in the past. The generation before yours boasted
- 1-bit DSD processing
- dual DAC signal conversion
- Onkyo’s exclusive DIRDC circuitry
- Onkyo Discrete SpectraModule™ headphone amplifier

DIRDC is pure marketing, although there is some claim of a piano specific filter (maybe they can roll off the lows and highs to really just capture the range of the piano and avoid noise that shouldn’t be there?)

The SpectraModule is their version of Marantz HDAMs presumably, as it is used in their integrated amps and is described with 500 V/µs slew-rates.

—-
Your generation was developed after the Onkyo bankruptcy. It still has the same headphone amp.

Quoting from Kawai:

The CA701’s high performance DAC (digital analogue conversion) system features audiophile-grade components that produce clear, high quality sound with a vast dynamic range.

In addition, the DAC utilises a custom sampling filter process that is specifically tuned for Kawai acoustic piano sounds, preserving the unique characteristics of the SK-EX concert grand.

Premium Power Amplifiers
Two separate amplifier modules that deliver sound energy with maximum efficiency. These custom designed amplifiers utilise high specification components for improved richness and presence, with a vast dynamic range that is free of distortion.

Discrete Headphone Amplifier
A unique headphone amplifier developed using the latest audio technologies. This class-leading amplifier features a 500 V/µs slew-rate, ensuring ultra-fast response to rapid changes in sound level, fully reproducing the piano’s dynamic characteristics.

The Korg did a good job with the built in speakers but its headphone amp has noticeable hiss with my MDR-7506. That wasn’t a problem with my Kawai MP8.

KORG Poetry (Digital Piano/Bluetooth Speaker) Measurements

KORG Poetry Digital Piano/Soundbar The KORG Poetry is a digital piano which has been designed as "The Piano For Lovers of Chopin." It uniquely captures an 1843 Pleyel vintage piano that was Chopin's choice of piano and also provides a modern Fazioli grand piano sample. What's unique is that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[amirm]

The Korg did a good job with the built in speakers but its headphone amp has noticeable hiss with my MDR-7506.

Then I am glad mine doesn't hiss with my AKG headphone! Thanks for posting all of that. Had no idea they cared at all given the performance.

 

[GXAlan]

Then I am glad mine doesn't hiss with my AKG headphone! Thanks for posting all of that. Had no idea they cared at all given the performance.

Maybe they don’t care, but they hype it up. . When you go to the dealer, they hype it up like you can play music and have the piano accompany it.

What’s weird is that the collaboration just talks about recording a performance and playing it back as opposed to anything else? Maybe they just pulled the circuit design from an existing Onkyo product, assuming it was good (and we have seen Onkyo stuff not perform that great)

As an aside, I tried Monolith planar headphones which are 96 dB efficient and that helps reduce the hiss. (Versus the 106 dB of the Sony headphones).

 

[Robin L]

I have been watching a lot of short piano videos. With almost no exception, they sound so distorted and poor to me. I assume some are recorded using iPhones and such. Others appear to have pro videographers yet the sound is just awful. Are they just doing a poor job or is it this difficult? I mostly hear the distortion from the bass notes. Some examples:

This one seems under water:

Every one of her videos sound bad in a different way!

Another under water:

This one screwed up the image too:

Another one with good image but so bad of a recording:

Professional recordings sound infinitely better no matter which album I listen to. Any ideas?

Recording a piano is easy once you get a few basics down. First, most people think the proper approach is aiming into the harp from the audience perspective. This will result in a vague and disembodied sound. The best approach is from the tail end of the piano. I've had the best luck with a pair of omni condensers spread about 20" apart, set back about 3 feet from the tail, positioned about 1 or 2 feet above the harp and aimed into the harp. If one is using a hand-held digital recorder with built-in cardioid condenser microphones, positioning the recorder as close to the same as the previous formula would work, but will not have as much bass or sense of space. Recording on a smartphone will probably give bad results. Peaks can be unexpectedly high, a touch of compression in post-production would help a bit.

I recorded these. The microphones were a pair of Neumann KM 130s, I was using a t.c. Electronics M2000 effects box as my ADC. I forget what I was using as a microphone preamp at the time but was using a Technics DA-10 DAT recorder (a consumer version of the Panasonic 3800). The venue was Kensington Unitarian Church, a venue favored by Andre Watts for recording piano. The instrument was a Yamaha concert grand. The CD, predictably, sounds a touch better than the YouTube feed:

 

[Philbo King]

This one seems under water:

Not just underwater, she is playing in a mirror- notice the entire key range is reversed...

(she wears her watch on her left hand, not her right- see the other videos.)

She reminds me of that actress (Katya) in Die Hard with a Vengeance:

View attachment 282745

If the piano brand label says 'AHAMAY' that's a clue...

 

[amirm]

What’s weird is that the collaboration just talks about recording a performance and playing it back as opposed to anything else?

There is nothing in the world that remotely recreates the sound of a piano when you are playing it. There is a wonderful reality and 3-D presentation as you play it that stereo can't even come close to recreating it. Those artists saying it can like the pianist in the video, either hear the difference but don't want to say, or don't hear it which is well, just as bad.

 

[amirm]

My piano teacher has asked me to help improve the recording of his piano teachings for youtube. One thing I am observing is that headphone listening to a piano is a different animal than speaker. Dual microphone recording on top of the strings sounds artificial in stereo to me with headphones. Given that large percentage of people listen with headphones, I wonder if that impacts the recording techniques for Piano.

 

[DEF]

My piano teacher has asked me to help improve the recording of his piano teachings for youtube. One thing I am observing is that headphone listening to a piano is a different animal than speaker. Dual microphone recording on top of the strings sounds artificial in stereo to me with headphones. Given that large percentage of people listen with headphones, I wonder if that impacts the recording techniques for Piano.

Usually we use VSTs when mixing into other songs. Other than that I would attribute the Piano sound either to "classical" or "requires high-end-recording methods"
Because you get tons of sounds accompanying the Piano, too.

 

[Blumlein 88]

My piano teacher has asked me to help improve the recording of his piano teachings for youtube. One thing I am observing is that headphone listening to a piano is a different animal than speaker. Dual microphone recording on top of the strings sounds artificial in stereo to me with headphones. Given that large percentage of people listen with headphones, I wonder if that impacts the recording techniques for Piano.

Have you tried adding some cross-feed. That might make it sound more like speakers over the phones. A small amount of cross-feed can fix it over headphones and if left in the recording make nearly no discernible difference when listened to over speakers.

Basically just take the opposite channel, reduce it by -16 db and add it in.

 

[DEF]

Have you tried adding some cross-feed. That might make it sound more like speakers over the phones. A small amount of cross-feed can fix it over headphones and if left in the recording make nearly no discernible difference when listened to over speakers.

Basically just take the opposite channel, reduce it by -16 db and add it in.

Teachers usually use digital piano + camera so they have better quality.
Or even a program to digitally show it.

But whatever. Been also studying piano since at least 10 years

 

[amirm]

Have you tried adding some cross-feed.

I have never liked crossfeed so no. But I was asking in the context of helping my Piano teacher for his youtube instructional videos. Not personal enjoyment.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I have never liked crossfeed so no. But I was asking in the context of helping my Piano teacher for his youtube instructional videos. Not personal enjoyment.

I don't know that it will fix it, but it might. I've tried mixing and had some types of mixes sound fine over speakers, but not over phones. Usually a small mix into the opposite channel fixes it so the phones sound about like speakers. OTOH, crossfeed if none is needed isn't helping much, and many phone amps with that option cross feed way too much signal.

 

[kyuu]

I'm assuming your piano teacher wants to use a "proper" piano rather than the analog outs from a digital piano or using the same (or a good keyboard) as a MIDI controller for VST software?

 

[Robin L]

I have never liked crossfeed so no. But I was asking in the context of helping my Piano teacher for his youtube instructional videos. Not personal enjoyment.

He can use a smartphone for the video element, but using outboard microphones feeding into the smartphone (using the configuration I suggested) will result in better sound. Spaced omnis will provide crossfeed naturally. And better microphones will certainly help.

 

[amirm]

I'm assuming your piano teacher wants to use a "proper" piano rather than the analog outs from a digital piano or using the same (or a good keyboard) as a MIDI controller for VST software?

Of course. Hence my comment about how much better a "real" acoustic piano sounds than recordings or my electronic one. I don't know what he uses for recording though. Will find out tomorrow.

 

[amirm]

Here is an example of piano recording which sounds nice but the wide stereo sounds a bit artificial to me:

 

[DEF]

Here is an example of piano recording which sounds nice but the wide stereo sounds a bit artificial to me:

Look into that:

Just sync with video and be done.
Because that dude used reverberation with no end in sight!!!
Pros do not do that.
My favorite for playing is PianoTeq, for hearing / listening it would be Grandeur or Production Pianos 1TB version

By the way - reason of why the end result will still differ is because artists give it their own touch / signature.

 

[amirm]

Look into that:

??? As I said, my teacher uses a grand piano. How is software playback going to help with that?