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Is a higher directivity speaker 'coloring' the sound?

Many rooms are described as very well damped or over damped, but have little to no damping below 300-500Hz. Such rooms trends to sound really harsh and are not well suited for listening. I believe this misunderstanding may be the source of many people thinking of damped rooms in general as not good for listening.
 
In my case horizontal directivity doesn't say much, front wall is dead-ish and side walls are four meters far from each speaker.

Vertical directivity though is much more important, as ceiling is a strong reflection usually and the taller a speaker, the more important it is.
So unless it's treated (mine is, ceiling was 3.2 meters before) I would had a good look at it and I would choose something with constant as much as I could.
 
Many rooms are described as very well damped or over damped, but have little to no damping below 300-500Hz. Such rooms trends to sound really harsh and are not well suited for listening. I believe this misunderstanding may be the source of many people thinking of damped rooms in general as not good for listening.

that's another factor. some even judge damped rooms after hearing a room covered with foam.....these can't sound good
 
It takes some time to get used to. Most judge them after a few minutes, while they heard lively rooms for thousands. In fact, this topic shows well that people don't really experience the ambience in the record.....and all the room ambience is suddenly gone. you have to rediscover ambience....kind of reset your ears
I find that my hearing immediately responds to the sort of ambience (esp. bass ambience) discussed here. But my background (growing up) was as a performing musician--with non-amplified instrumentation. Up until age 8, I always got hauled to the big organs for my mother to practice (she was a master's organ performance student at TCU).

But I'm aware that many/most people do not relate to this experience.

Many rooms are described as very well damped or over damped, but have little to no damping below 300-500Hz. Such rooms trends to sound really harsh and are not well suited for listening. I believe this misunderstanding may be the source of many people thinking of damped rooms in general as not good for listening.
If you've ever spent time inside an anechoic chamber, I would say that even rooms with good damping down to bass frequencies--aren't my preference. When the music stops, it's very disorienting. In fact, I find that it tends to affect balance and digestive equilibrium. YMMV.

So your comment about "such rooms tend to sound really harsh" doesn't really resonate with me. In fact, I would characterize the sound quality as "boomy" (i.e., 100-200 Hz with little bass trapping) or generally bass-smearing experiences (not being able to hear bass instruments clearly, and hearing very long bass reverberation trails). Ever been inside a stone cathedral and listened to a large pipe organ playing J.S. Bach preludes and fugues? It can be fatiguing in that the sound never really seems to stop, and everything tends to unclear. "Bass ambience" takes on a new perspective. Terrible for midrange intelligibility.

So I can't agree with your assessment on this point. It's much more complicated and varied in personal experiences, I've found--and definitely not "harsh"--quite the opposite: dull, inarticulate, and booming.

Chris
 
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Harsh is not a scientific or precise term. It is hard to tell what the correct definition would be. It also depends on what the lowest frequency of effective absorbtion is, the shape of the room, the listening distance, which speakers etc.

I think it is safe to say that rooms with uneaven damping are far from coherent and one can not in any way conclude what "such a room" sounds like.

I do have a small anechoic chamber, and I have been in a few large ones as well. The largest one was well above 200 cubic meters. I find them quite comfortable, maybe because product development environments tend to inspire me. We did a recording in our room some 20 years ago and it sounded great. It was really pleasant to hear the guitar and vocals so pure. It was also really fun to play back this recording incase the chamber completely dry. It did not have any room ambience, but pin pointing was out of this world. It was almost like being in a very quiet forest, with the guitar and vocals really close.

But most recordings are not made for such an environment.
 
It takes some time to get used to. Most judge them after a few minutes, while they heard livley rooms for thousands. In fact, this topic shows well that people don't really experience the ambience in the record.....and all the room ambience is suddenly gone. you have to rediscover ambience....kind of reset your ears
I've been through that experience of adjusting back and forth between lively and more damped rooms. Or speakers with lower or higher directivity listened to up close or at more of a distance. With just two speakers I'm convinced that some properly controlled ambience in the space is better than not having it. With more channels I'm told it's less important. I don't have enough experience to have my own opinion. It would seem to me that we should expect to hear some of our own self-noise bouncing back at us from the virtual space we are hearing in the recording. Otherwise there is an obvious psychoacoustic mismatch. Maybe we need microphones in the room that play our self noise back through the speakers, with convolution to match the acoustics of the space we are listening to on the recording.
Or just learn to sit very quietly so as not to disturb the illusion.
I've been told that in mixing and mastering rooms it has been learned not to over-deaden the space because that can make it more fatiguing to work in over time. A higher direct to reflected ratio rather than a super short RT60, and longer time delay for reflections to initially reach the ears seems to be the sought after compromise that lets one hear into the recording very well without inducing fatigue.
 
. With just two speakers I'm convinced that some properly controlled ambience in the space is better than not having it.

Yes, in two channel you need the room to give you some energy from the sides/rear to help increase a sense of spaciousness. This document explains a bit about this starting on document page 4 (pdf pg 7). The tricky part is to get the spaciousness and envelopment from the room the reflections have to be fairly delayed so they are heard as ambiance and not just masked by the direct sound.

The flip side, is in surround, if you are pulling the ambiance/reverb out of the recording (which is already delayed from the original space) and reproducing that from side/rears/heights you don't want the room adding its own delay to the original sound as it gives conflicting cues and the room reflections are likely less delayed so they will make the surround reproduction somewhat.


With more channels I'm told it's less important. I don't have enough experience to have my own opinion. It would seem to me that we should expect to hear some of our own self-noise bouncing back at us from the virtual space we are hearing in the recording. Otherwise there is an obvious psychoacoustic mismatch.
How loud are you when listening to music? Unless I am crashing into something in a concert hall, I am not hearing myself.


Maybe we need microphones in the room that play our self noise back through the speakers, with convolution to match the acoustics of the space we are listening to on the recording.
Or just learn to sit very quietly so as not to disturb the illusion.
You laugh, Lexicon actually did some of this in what they called LIVE. You set it up in your room and it used their ambiance generation/reverb to make the room sound much larger like a concert hall. It was a sort of a home version of their LARES system. For most people it wasn't very useful but it was very fun to play with.
 
It can be a little odd if nothing is playing as your eyes tell you one thing about the acoustic space and your ears tell you something else. In my setup looking forward from my prime seat and literally everything but the screen is black so there isn't really any visual cues to conflict with what my ears are (not) telling me. Turn the lights down and turn on the music (in surround) and enjoy.

View attachment 470776

My listening space is audio-only - no screen, no video equipment whatsoever. I've taken to listening with the lights out, and I almost always end up closing my eyes as well. I really enjoy it - eliminating the factor of what I'm looking at seems to have a positive effect on my listening experience.
 
My listening space is audio-only - no screen, no video equipment whatsoever. I've taken to listening with the lights out, and I almost always end up closing my eyes as well. I really enjoy it - eliminating the factor of what I'm looking at seems to have a positive effect on my listening experience.
Absolutely, I do the same. With the light out my room is completely blacked out and I love listening to music that way.
 
Dr. Toole has mentioned his experiences with this a few times on this forum. Here's an older post, and a more recent one. Apparently it worked quite well.
That is cool, I hadn't seen those posts.

Dr. Toole is slightly incorrect though, that was a released Lexicon product. It was part of a software upgrade for the MC-12 which used the 4 mics from the MC-12s room correction EQ option. I have it and have set this up in my theater, it does work extremely well. My kids loved it when they were little and just couldn't stop laughing at the massive reverb you could dial in to my little room. I used to bring people into the room blindfolded and had them tell me how big the room was. They were very confused when the took off the blindfold.
 
Absolutely, I do the same. With the light out my room is completely blacked out and I love listening to music that way.

I have intricately controlled pot
lights and track lights in my listening room (which is also my home theatre room).

Sometimes I have the lights over the speaker area turned off completely, so that the speakers and everything beyond them are plunged into darkness. That can be really cool - it’s sort of does the cool imaging thing without me having to close my eyes.

Though I have a few different mood set ups for listening one of them I like is quite dark and has gently changing coloured lights on the projection screen beyond the two-channel speakers. I find the combination of some mild colour stimulation along with the sound quite a nice mix:

IMG-1792.jpg
 
One thing that's been pointed out to me repeatedly is that people really don't enjoy being in overly dead sounding rooms, even if it makes the multi-channel envelopment and stereophonic imaging better.

Guess it depends on your threshold for
“ overly dead sounding.”

My room was designed for good sound and has plenty of strategically placed acoustic treatment. It’s carefully disguised or hidden because I hate the look of acoustic treatment. So the room looks essentially normal. But the result is a very calm, quiet sounding room.

What I find interesting is that over the years guests have commented on the sound of the room many times. They don’t have any idea about the hidden acoustic treatment and they aren’t audiophiles at all, but not long after we enter the room talking many of them said “ oh my gosh, it sounds so good in here” “ yes I noticed that I could hear your voice so easily” “ it sounds super relaxing in here…”

I never expected that.
 
That is cool. I used to use some of the visualizers which can be fun but don't want the projector on for music. I'll have to look into something for the screen. I can probably mount it in the rear of the room, it is a high gain screen so it lights up very easy. Thanks.
 
Guess it depends on your threshold for
“ overly dead sounding.”

My room was designed for good sound and has plenty of strategically placed acoustic treatment. The result is a very calm, quiet sounding room. Where do I find interesting is that over the years guests have commented on the sound of the room many times. They don’t have any idea about the hidden acoustic treatment and they aren’t audiophiles at all, but not long after we enter the room talking many of them said “ oh my gosh, it sounds so good in here” “ yes I noticed that I could hear your voice so easily” “ it sounds super relaxing in here…”

I never expected that.
Yes, people coming into a room like that notice it and in my experience it just reinforces the theater feel. Most times they ever talk quieter.
 
That is cool. I used to use some of the visualizers which can be fun but don't want the projector on for music. I'll have to look into something for the screen. I can probably mount it in the rear of the room, it is a high gain screen so it lights up very easy. Thanks.

Yeah, they are just pretty cheap remote control LED lights such as you can find on Amazon.

I’d actually like to upgrade to a newer system, but it would be a hassle and this has worked fine for years.

I also listen to surround sound in the room, and often enough that can be with my projector on because I’m streaming from something like Apple TV, and so the graphics for any particular song on Apple TV take up the image on my screen, which can be nice too.

Because I like visualizers, I actually investigated the idea of adding another tiny cheap LED projector in the room just for that, but I decided it wasn’t worth it. There wasn’t any good solution.

Yes, people coming into a room like that notice it and in my experience it just reinforces the theater feel. Most times they ever talk quieter.

The other great thing about it is speech intelligibility when watching movies and surround sound with the projection screen.
I do sound design for film and TV myself, and I also have sensitive ears, so often by the time I get to watching a movie I’m wanting things to be quieter. I can play my home theatre at quiet levels and there’s never any problem hearing dialogue clearly (and without having to boost the dialogue channel) .
Nobody ever says in my system “ what are they saying? Can you turn it up?”
 
Yeah, they are just pretty cheap remote control LED lights such as you can find on Amazon.

I’d actually like to upgrade to a newer system, but it would be a hassle and this has worked fine for years.

Going down the rabbit hole... looks like there are a bunch of products that will sync lighting to HDMI. I usually use Plexamp headless so I will see if I can find something that would work with that.

The other great thing about it is speech intelligibility when watching movies and surround sound with the projection screen.
I do sound design for film and TV myself, and I also have sensitive ears, so often by the time I get to watching a movie I’m wanting things to be quieter. I can play my home theatre at quiet levels and there’s never any problem hearing dialogue clearly (and without having to boost the dialogue channel) .
Nobody ever says in my system “ what are they saying? Can you turn it up?”
Definitely. I swapped a bunch of equipment out and have been resetting up my bi-amped mains so using REW a lot. Interesting to see the measurements for clarity and such in there.
 
For many months now, I've been listening to two very different directivity speakers, Philharmonic Audio HT's with an AMT ribbon and the coaxial Genelec 8361a's. The biggest difference (regarding directivity) is the HT's sound more spacious or to me 'ethereal'. The Genelecs have a much clearer but smaller soundstage.

I followed the thread about your Genelec 8361a's purchase adventure a while back. I was hoping you would buy them and tell us how they compare with your other speakers after some time.
 
What I find interesting is that over the years guests have commented on the sound of the room many times. They don’t have any idea about the hidden acoustic treatment and they aren’t audiophiles at all, but not long after we enter the room talking many of them said “ oh my gosh, it sounds so good in here” “ yes I noticed that I could hear your voice so easily” “ it sounds super relaxing in here…”

I never expected that.
That's a very good sign that the room is not overly damped. It's a nice bonus that rooms that work well for stereo playback are generally nice places to talk, or sing, or play an instrument. One of the first big acoustic installs I was involved with was in a mansion up in Portland. The basement theater was heavily (but smartly) treated. After a month or so I called him up and asked him how it was. He said his wife loved to go down there to talk with him because it was so easy to hear each other.
 
How loud are you when listening to music? Unless I am crashing into something in a concert hall, I am not hearing myself.
If there's the sound of an audience shuffling about and talking before the show you won't hear your own self noise over that din. But if it's supposed to be quiet in there you can definitely hear your own foot scuff or voice returning to you in very large spaces. So between movements or songs when there's not a cheering audience the effect could be compelling.

The complex problem is that we don't want the sound of the stereo recording itself feeding back through that reverb simulator. How would that work?? I guess I kind of answered it: only have effect come on when the sound from the speakers is very low. And maybe even a cancelation circuit could somehow be employed.
 
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