Is a $5,500 professional Trinnov calibration objectively better than a knowledgeable DIY calibration?

[etc6849]

What you're saying is a little one sided though (just like the AVS Forum staff apparently). I also didn't knowingly violate any AVS rules, but if I did, sure I deserve to get banned from that forum. That doesn't mean I can't go elsewhere and post what I'd like on a different site. I signed no NDA, and the VENDOR, didn't ask me not to share.

Keep in mind, AVS has terms of use and a vendor program:

https://www.avsforum.com/help/terms/

https://www.avsforum.com/help/vendor_faq/

It is clear one is not to use a personal account for commercial purposes. It is clear a VENDOR is not to send unsolicited PMs.

However, Adam, is listed as a "Premium Member." Adam thinks it's ok to spam people via PM detailing his service and pricing, then, presumably, has a problem when I share the PMs from the conversation, all the while he posts about how busy he is with his clients, is asked by manufacturers to participate in an end-user DIY forum (see his PM), does training for Trinnov, is a Trinnov beta tester, etc...

I then get banned from the thread, while the VENDOR, who regularly violates the terms of use of AVS is allowed to quote my posts and misrepresent what I said.

If I truly violated AVS rules by posting a message from a VENDOR, who regularly spams a DIY thread discussing his service, spammed me directly discussing his service and pricing, admits to me in a PM that he is asked by manufacturers to be a "voice of reason" as they don't want to maintain a presence on the forums and says that's why he's on the forums, then fine. I didn't intentionally violate anything, but I deserve to be banned from that thread if I did.

But, what about someone using a personal premium account, being asked by manufacturers to post, telling me in PM that's the reason he's there, and blatantly spamming the thread about his $5500 calibration that doesn't include adding room treatments, when no one asked about any calibration services or recommendations?

All these posts below are public. Notice the difference? One dealer (who is actually a famous theater designer) says he is a vendor, follows forum rules, is helpful to others, while another who admits he only started using the forums to speak on behalf of manufacturers doesn't... See Die Zwei's vendor tag? Where's Adam's? Like seriously?

I think Adam earned his own criticism to be honest. He's a business owner, a Trinnov dealer, and a $5500 calibrator, not me. I'm a legit end-user who paid almost $20k for a product. I have every right to post about a product I paid for, and talk about my opinions of the $5500 calibration only service that someone else brought up, and that I can do just as good as a professional.

I'd be happy to do in the Trinnov thread, but I got banned from it. This all started because I told one of his customers in the thread that I can do just as good calibration for myself, for free. Totally true in my mind, all be it my opinion. In fact, I still believe my result will indeed be better as I address room acoustics first.

He literally sent me the PM's in the original post here, I let him have his say and the last word. I log-in a day later to see snarky replies like this posted publicly:

Now, I can't prove Adam got me banned. That's fair. I do know I quoted his snarky post, was very cordial, and gave several technical reasons why my calibration would be just as good if not better. I also said let him know that he PM'd me and I let him have the last word in this, so why bring it up again publicly? I also shared all the PMs from the conversation, including my own. Literally minutes after Adam replies to that post, I get banned while he is still logged in. Draw your own conlclusions.

There are forums where you get banned if you post private messages. I find it strange that events discussed in a private setting are being discussed publicly here, and that the other party is being addressed by their real name and can’t respond.
Does Adam Pelz know about this thread?
Couldn’t the facts of the matter have been described completely anonymously?

On the topic itself:
1. A service is always worth exactly as much as someone is willing to pay for it.
2. Whether you yourself arrive at a better or worse result during calibration is pure speculation as long as you can’t compare the results with one another.

 

[Audionaut]

Those forums must be in the business of protecting companies at the expense of customers.

So it is absolutely clear: commercial communication from a company to a customer is as good as public in my book. There must be no expectation of privacy on the side of the company. People routinely post their customer service transcripts with companies, myself included.

No, these are forums that distinguish between public expression of opinion in an online forum and privately sent messages. Otherwise, a private message would lose all value and become public—and thus no longer private. It doesn’t matter whether the sender is a company or an individual, nor does it matter what the content is, unless it violates the forum rules or legal regulations.

I think it’s simply good etiquette to be able to rely on the fact that a private message remains private and isn’t made public.

If that’s not the case on ASR, it’s still good to know.

 

[Audionaut]

What would those facts be?

Everything except the real name.

The technical issues remain completely unaffected by this.

 

[etc6849]

I think it's fair to list a business owner by name if they are masquerading as a personal forum user, but using that account for clear financial and commercial interests.

I get what you're saying had he been a personal user, I would never do that. But he's not a personal user, he's a VENDOR, and he put his full name on his AVS profile page. I didn't dox anyone.

Everything except the real name.

The technical issues remain completely unaffected by this.

 

[Ype]

@etc6849 Sounds like you found a new community before this happened my friend.
The reason I am on this forum is because I know there are some far more knowledgeable people on here in a field I am only a hobbyist in.

However, I did read sound reproduction 4th edition first to make sure I was up to date at 1/100th the cost of the professional calibration you got offered.
As I started reading online posts it was nice to have a proper reference to re-familiarize myself with the subject material.

A lot of what is being discussed in forums, even today, is settled science from decades ago.
Looking forward to seeing what you are working on in the future!

 

[Audionaut]

I get what you're saying had he been a personal user, I would never do that.

Let's just leave it at that.
I don't want to accuse you here.
If I sent you a private message and you posted it publicly, I'd be really upset—that's my main point.

Would I spend 5,500 euros on room calibration? No, never.

Would I offer it for 5,500 euros? Well, that's more likely.

 

[etc6849]

It's also good etiquette, and a requirement per the AVS terms of use and their vendor program, to have the vendor tag if you are using your account for commercial interest (which Adam most certainly is), and possibly pay a fee (not sure). I'd say that's especially true, seeing as how his PM begins with:

I think it’s simply good etiquette to be able to rely on the fact that a private message remains private and isn’t made public.

 

[etc6849]

I totally agree with your stance over all. I'd never do that to a normal user, and had it done once to me and it sucked.

But if you're a business and send me unsolicited details and pricing, I should be free to share that with anyone I want. If I broke the AVS's rules, which presumably I may have, I'll be the first to own that mistake. Heck, I'm not even saying I shouldn't be banned from that thread if those are really AVS' rules.

Where does that line get blurred though? When I get sent what is spam by definition by a vendor. I hadn't quoted Adam's post at that point. I quoted another user who used his services, and simply said I can do just as good of a calibration myself for free. That's my opinion certainly, but it's not like I'm a novice. It's also that particular users opinion that the only way to get the best performance is to hire Adam. I should be allowed to post my opinion without getting PM'd spam from another Trinnov dealer, when I already have my own Trinnov dealer.

Let's just leave it at that.
I don't want to accuse you here.
If I sent you a private message and you posted it publicly, I'd be really upset—that's my main point.

 

[Chris A]

But they were simply not interested (3 in total)

Maybe times will change and calibration services by hifi dealers will help hifi stay alive.

Clearly, this is a different topic than the OP picked to discuss here, but there seems to be a reasonable expectation as to what the term "full service dealership" evokes when thinking about the sometimes extreme margins asked by these type of businesses--which together seem to have no interest in trying to find less expensive ways to do the job better.

For myself, I knew that I had no need of the services offered by these sort dealerships--because I already knew that they categorically did not possess the expertise or the willingness to cover this sort of dialing-in process.

So while the above topic is really out of bounds for this thread's topic, clearly it is raised as a contributing factor to the topic of this thread: "why aren't there more 'experts' geographically distributed that can do the job and thereby drive prices downward?".

Additionally, the obvious contempt that this "expert" holds for his customer's abilities to quickly grasp the needed concepts and basic information to eventually enabled them to do the job themselves is a disincentive to all that had expressed interest in acquiring an extremely high priced piece of gear like a Trinnov preamp with dialing-in capabilities. I know that I have little interest to even look at that path, since it now kind of reeks of audiophilia. I would instead encourage others to simply go around such over-the-top offerings in favor of improvements in other areas, such as actually improving room acoustics (including getting a bigger listening room) and much better loudspeaker directivity capabilities--which no one seems to be very concerned with presently.

JMTC/YMMV

Chris

 

[Roland68]

I’m curious what the measurement-oriented crowd here thinks about this because a discussion on AVS recently went way further than I ever expected.

I posted on avsforum that I believe I can do just as good as a professional calibrator charging $5500. I never said professional calibration has no value, nor did I say anyone can do it themselves without any study.

A $5,500 two-day calibration can absolutely improve a system, particularly for an owner who lacks the knowledge, measurement equipment, time, or interest to do the work personally.

The disagreement started when another AVS member told me that by saying I could achieve results “just as good” myself, I was insulting highly trained professionals and that I would probably: “never know how good your system could potentially sound” without hiring one.

That eventually resulted in a well-known professional calibrator, Adam Pelz, whom does training and beta testing for Trinnov, is a Trinnov dealer, owns Bespoke Cinemas per his linked-in, sending me several unsolicited PM's describing his service.

The $5,500 calibration process
Adam provided a very detailed description of his two-day calibration process. It seems very thorough, in case I've missed something, you can see his description in PM 2.png that is attached:
verifying installation and connections
near-field speaker measurements
individual-driver measurements when something looks wrong
polarity verification
baseline frequency-response measurements
room dimensions and placement analysis
Speaker Boundary Interference Response (SBIR)
modal analysis
subwoofer optimization
seat-to-seat consistency
PEQ and other DSP work
spatial averaging
coherence and transfer-function measurements
running the room-correction system
independently verifying the correction afterward
crossover optimization
all-pass filters where appropriate
time alignment
level matching
acoustical phase matching
building multiple listening presets
extensive listening afterward

I have no problem saying that sounds like a thorough calibration process to be fair and honest.

What I question is the leap from that to saying a knowledgeable owner cannot achieve an equally good result themselves, or implying that other competent calibrators charging much less must somehow be “starving.” I would have no problem finding a calibrator near me for $1,500 or less.

Of course, his public rebuttal is sarcastic, and then in his PM he twists what I actually said. I never claimed someone was going to fly across the country, pay for airfare, hotels, rental cars, meals, and spend two days at my house for under $1,500 total. I said I can find competent calibration services near me in that price range. Those are obviously two very different things.

View attachment 553821

What is most interesting is after his check list, he talks about his subjective part of the professional process.
So after what I would have considered a thorough technical process, he then begins Day 2 by listening again to make sure he is still as happy with the result as the previous night. But once additional calibration changes are being made according to whether particular music sounds “great,” subjective judgment clearly becomes part of the final result, per his PM that is attached.

There can obviously be a technically well-integrated system followed by subjective voicing according to preference. But once preference is part of the optimization criterion, there cannot simultaneously be only one objectively correct answer. And if you have to revisit voicing subjectively, I'd be rethinking what target curve I'm using.

There's other finer points to consider: the owner has the time advantage.
This is probably the biggest reason I believe I can do as well or better in my own room. A visiting calibrator gets two days, it's not like they can order additional bass traps or subwoofers during that time if they can't fix a room mode.

I didn't start with eight subwoofers. I started with two, then four, then five, and continued changing and improving my system over the coarse of years; some of that is because I'm middle class so had to spread out my purchases. I also learned about room acoustics and added bass traps, etc...

To his credit, Adam specifically said he evaluates the room and makes recommendations for improvements, but also acknowledged that actually addressing these types of physical changes isn't something he can accomplish during a two-day visit as he'd have to order subs, etc... He will move speakers and subs though.

Adam's admission in PM and lack of commercial interest disclosure on his posts.
This is a secondary issue worth mentioning, but I really like how ASR makes it clear who is a dealer, industry insider, etc... Adam Pelz goes by applez and all that is on his profile is "Premium Member."

Of course if you read than one of his posts, you can figure out he's a dealer and industry insider. Per his linked-in, Adam owns Bespoke Cinemas and Integration, which Trinnov itself lists as a Trinnov dealer.

In his first PM he wrote:
“I only began posting after some manufacturers asked me to be a voice of reason, as they chose not to maintain a direct presence on a public forum”

Nothing wrong with that inherently, I guess, but I like audiosciencereview much better.

But I do think there is a meaningful difference between an unaffiliated owner saying: “You really need to hire a professional to get the best from your Trinnov" versus someone who charges $5500 to quoting and PM'ing me.

One other comment that surprised me was in his last PM he states:
“Despite this being a largely DIY community, 99% have a marginal understanding of basic acoustics” and: “I almost never get a single response, as it is beyond their knowledge.”

To be completely fair, he immediately said those people: “aren't stupid by any means”

That philosophy is pretty much the opposite of why I participate in enthusiast forums though. I think knowledgeable people should help other owners learn this stuff.

I do agree that professional calibration has value if you don't understand measurements, are short on time, etc... I'm just not sure if you should go the $5,500 route, especially if you plan to add more subs later... then what, you have to pay again?!?

My main disagreement is with the idea that hiring a particular professional at all is necessary to reach the best performance available from a Trinnov system, which has a fairly decent auto-calibration system called Optimizer, which Adam says he uses in his PMs?

Clearly my statement triggered Adam, but is a technically competent owner saying, “I can do this just as well myself,” really somehow insulting to professionals? Presumably it was based on the first two PMs. I didn't even respond to his first one. I responded once after the second, then he responded again. I didn't answer and let him have the last word... however, hours later he started quoting my posts publicly again.

I actually didn't see his new posts quoting me until the next day, and I posted the attached, now-deleted post that I thought was a very fair technical rebuttal. At least my ban from the Trinnov thread is only temporary lol. Go figure. Having an end user temporarily banned from the a DIY Trinnov thread for my rebuttal, while the industry professional goes back and quotes my posts after I literally let him have the last word in his PMs, which honestly came across as pretty condescending...

Legal Dislaimers
This post represents my own opinions, but I've tried to be objective and fair in how I've presented everything. I've shared the full PM exchange, and users can decide for themselves.

I also don't want to drag ASR into someone else's controversy. I have a lot of respect for Amir, especially as a fellow EE and all the work he does to educate users, and I appreciate him clarifying the policy before I posted anything. If Amir ever wants to independently verify any of this, I'm happy to provide whatever screenshots, timestamps, or even access to my AVSForum account so he can log-in himself to confirm that I've represented the exchange accurately.

I'm also not trying to attack a professional who's simply trying to make a living. But when a business reaches out to you through unsolicited PMs discussing and defending their paid service, I think it's fair for those messages to be part of the discussion. I would not post private messages from an ordinary end user.

Shall I let you in on a huge secret?
There was a time when even Adam—the Trinnov dealer and calibrator—didn't know which way to hold the microphone, let alone how to connect or use it.
If he could learn it, then surely almost anyone else can too—provided they are willing to engage with the subject matter, invest the time, and learn the ins and outs.
And who says it can't be made even better?

You seem to be quite knowledgeable already, and you’ve even invested in the measurement equipment.
So, what’s holding you back?
Aside from the fact that you have virtually unlimited attempts (unlike with many other material things), you could even create a guide for everyone else to use.

 

[etc6849]

Very fair points from both of you. @Marc v E and @Chris A

Every Trinnov dealer I got a quote from (and likely every and any Home Theater Trinnov dealer), has to undergo training on calibration, and I believe there are several classes they all take.

Out of irony, I could have my dealer calibrate my setup for a fraction of what Adam charges as the dealer near me is very close (within 20 minutes). I had actually never quoted a post of Adam's in weeks prior to his PMs, and had already purchased a unit 5 months before his PMs (clear from my participation in the thread where I helped others several times). I think me saying I can do just as good a job (while responding to another end-user not Adam), really rubbed him the wrong way so he PM'd me...

For the record though, my Trinnov dealer gave me a great price, and I didn't pay anywhere near the current ~$32k MSRP for a 32 channel Trinnov Altitude CI (think well over $10k less than that). It really was like buying a car though, but I got 4 different quotes. Of course, I went with the cheapest one since I didn't need tech/dealer support. That part is kinda silly to jump through hoops and sales pitches, and I didn't like the purchasing process at all. And one of the dealers who quoted me was really snooty and talked down to me, even though I told them I'm very experienced, have multiple engineering degrees, etc... It wasn't Adam for the record.

So in general, what Chris is saying is a very fair observation. However, I wouldn't let one dealer out of hundreds represent a product that is actually born out of research from multiple PhD's, originated in the pro audio/pro cinema segments, and has many unique DSP features no other manufacturer offers right now. It is a totally flexible pro audio based architecture (which I really like, so another reason I bought one).

Is the ~$610/channel I paid worth it? Well for me the appeal of having all my DSP architecture in one device instead of 6 Xilica XD4080's, plus having the ability to decode all immersive formats was worth $610/channel. It may definitely not be for others, especially if they don't already have 8 subs and 11 speakers.

Keep in mind, I can likely resell all the Xilica units now for around $2000 as they're discontinued and sought after. They are actually great units too, and ChrisA is the one who got me to buy my first Xilica, which was a great decision.

Is there an audiophilia aspect to buying a Trinnov Altitude, especially with some dealers? Oh definitely. I'm sure many of the dealers sell $5k HDMI cables. I doubt Adam does that and I've seen posts of his recommending pro audio cables, but sure some dealers certainly do. Do some only charge MSRP, even for remote out of state sales? Yep, I actually did get one bid like that out of the four.

 

[Chris A]

You seem to be quite knowledgeable already, and you’ve even invested in the measurement equipment. So, what’s holding you back?

Knowing the OP to the degree that I do already, he probably already has started...and likely finished. I think he is much more polite in seeking reassurance here than I would be for seeking support after a wrong was committed by moderators/admins of another forum. I've seen that sort of thing before. Life is too short.

...you could even create a guide for everyone else to use.

This takes real time, unfortunately...speaking from experience. The amount of work in preparing tutorials would likely result in writing a pretty substantial book (which is where I now find myself in process for a more general purpose hi-fi book).

However, something has changed in the area of IP protection in the last 4-5 years especially for technical/engineering tutorials (and you can easily guess what that something is). Even graduate-level class presentations are "harvested" without real acknowledgement or remuneration for hundreds/thousands of hours it takes to do a real job of creating useful tutorial(s).

Chris

 

[Roland68]

This takes real time, unfortunately...speaking from experience. The amount of work in preparing tutorials would likely result in writing a pretty substantial book (which is where I now find myself in process for a more general purpose hi-fi book).

However, something has changed in the area of IP protection in the last 4-5 years especially for technical/engineering tutorials (and you can easily guess what that something is). Even graduate-level class presentations are "harvested" without real acknowledgement or remuneration for hundreds/thousands of hours it takes to do a real job of creating useful tutorial(s).

Chris

Imagine an app that records via voice control and transcribes in real-time: you simply log the entire setup or calibration process using keywords or short sentences, and then have an AI—trained specifically for this purpose—summarize it all.
Don't get me wrong—the goal isn't to have the AI generate the content based on its own knowledge, but rather to use it to articulate *your* own knowledge. It handles the very part of the process that is so time-consuming.

If you also record a screen capture of the software while doing this, you can process both inputs together and end up with a ready-made training video.

An added benefit is that you can go back at any time to check exactly what you did, how you did it, or whether you did it at all.

If I’d had something like this 20 or 30 years ago, I could have saved myself thousands—or even ten thousand—hours of work over the course of my life.

 

[etc6849]

Definitely and thanks for the complements. I started with a CI-10 and calibrated that many times, then bought 22 channels to upgrade to the full 32 channels.

The build thread is below. Just 16 more cables to make to have 16 DACs and 17 amps wired up. Well over 100 cables in the setup. I ran out of cable sleeving and Canare DA206 110 ohm digital cable, so delayed another three days or so.

Trinnov AltitudeCI Review and 32 Channel Build Thread

Background: I did some quick digital-path testing on my AltitudeCI because I wanted to check the part of the unit that I use in playback: HDMI input to AES output. I am not using the AltitudeCI analog outputs, so I was not trying to test the DAC section or analog performance. I also don't feel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

There are tutorials on trinnov.com as well as videos other dealers posted on youtube, so I'm not worried at all about using it to tri-amp FL,FR,C,SL and SR. It's a lot easier than what I used to do manually for sure.

What I did before was download all the Altitude related PDFs that Trinnov had posted, and printed their kb articles to PDF. I then trained an AI on them. You definitely do not need a dealer, and any stupid question I have about Trinnov's internal DSP architecture, gets answered instantly with 80% accuracy. You have to ask it to cite the source though, and it will hallucinate so YMMV.

Knowing the OP to the degree that I do already, he probably already has started...and likely finished. I think he is much more polite in seeking reassurance here than I would be for seeking support after a wrong was committed by moderators/admins of another forum. I've seen that sort of thing before. Life is too short.

 

[PGAMiami]

I’ve been using Mitch Barnett for years. He’s written books on acoustics, designed hardware, worked in studios … and he charges a fraction of $5500. That said he does it all remotely, and not for Trinnov, instead he sends you a set of convolution filters that run on Roon or a small computer. One reason I bought the Trinnov is I wanted to be able to do the work myself. Don’t get me wrong, he’s great, and extremely fair and honest. It’s just that I didn’t want my system to depend on one person.

I’m not sure I see the point of doing near field measurements other than to make sure the speaker are functioning as expected. Doesn’t make much sense to me to cascade pre Optimizer filters and then the Optimizer filters. Also don’t expect a calibrator will do much better than waveforming if one can follow their recommended positioning for subs. Above the Schroeder frequency, Trinnov should also shine.

I’d be willing to pay a few hundred just to make sure I’m doing things correctly measuring and with the Trinnov settings, but the reason I got the Trinnov is so I can use it to optimize the room without employing a calibration service. That shouldn’t take more than a couple hours. Others may disagree.

 

[DenonMate]

$5,600?

If I need a new roof, I call a professional. The new one costs money, but it’ll last 30+x years.

But if there’s one thing I’ve learned in recent years, it’s this: measuring and calibrating your own audio system is like cleaning the dust. No sooner is it done than it starts all over again. A new amp, speakers, or the WAF wants curtains on the windows… There’s hardly any other area where learning to use tools and doing DIY is more worthwhile than here—if you want optimal sound.

 

[Fidji]

I will hire Adam for my next HT. He is the best out there and he is worth every $ you spend on him.

Simple as that. If you have 250k+ HT, it is a no brainer. I think I can get 90% out of the system by myself, but why should I leave anything on the table. This is valid for Trinnov. For Dirac/Anthem/Audyssey based setups it makes probably no sense, unless you have very complex install.

I consider myself advanced hobbyist, I started with Audyssey, know my way around with REW, can do filters, I can read and understand measurements and I can critically listen. I know 10x more about Trinnov than dealer that sold me the unit and I have taken paid remote consultations from one US calibrator to learn some trick of the trade. But the calibrator I have hired some time ago showed me how big difference between pro and hobbyist can be.

i do not like to use analogies, as they usually are not very precise. But if I should think of something, it would pro Nikon/Cannon camera with top lenses, This would be Trinnov. You will get great pictures yourself, using it in auto mode, once you master basics of composition and light. But there will be difference if pro adjusts all the parameters manually and takes a picture with years of experience.

Saying that - I do not think it makes sense for OP. Not because of any system/cost related thing - but because @etc6849 seems to me like someone that likes doing things by himself and “it;s about the journey, not the destination” type of person. I can relate ;-).

 

[etc6849]

It totally depends on your abilities, experience and willingness to learn.

I mean, this stuff is science and not magic. The professional clicks the automatic button at the end, then adjusts things after listening the next day.

I seriously doubt I'm only getting 90% out of my system, that is total none sense. I'd go as far to say, I can do a better calibration because I can stop midway then order bass traps or more subs if needed to correct room modes that EQ can't fix, then restart without traveling across country and charging another $5500 or whatever.

Honestly, sounds like BS without a full set of REW measurements for before and after... where before is a Trinnov and system calibration someone like me does, and after is supposedly the "best" and will transform my system (uh huh sure it will). Of course, you'll never find those REW comparison files anywhere lol.

If you don't want to learn about excursion curves, target curves, etc... sure, hire a professional, makes total sense. I'm sure plenty of wealthy people who don't want to learn about audio and do that all the time.

 

[Chris A]

I seriously doubt I'm only getting 90% out of my system, that is total none sense. I'd go as far to say, I can do a better calibration because I can stop midway then order bass traps or more subs if needed to correct room modes that EQ can't fix, then restart without traveling across country and charging another $5500 or whatever.

I think a comment is due...

I've helped many dozens of people dial-in their DSP crossovers for their horn-loaded setups (remotely via email exchanges of MDAT files and DSP crossover configuration files--as you may already be aware). Several of these individuals have thanked me, then gone off to learn how to do it themselves. Others, well, they came back for "seconds" and even "thirds". I understand why. I also understand those that want to learn to do it themselves--and succeed to the point where I never hear from them again.

So the issue can be that some feel they need help because the technical "step up" to absorbing all that needs to be considered when making adjustments can be too daunting to them, and even knowing when things are actually better technically--looking at the measurements--much less really knowing if the setup subjectively really does sound better for the entire spectrum of recordings that make up the bulk of our music libraries.

These tasks can look impossible for some--and they may indeed be effectively impossible for them considering the amount of information that they really need to absorb.

Ellery, you and I may be lucky in that we possess that knowledge and those insights which are needed to learn ourselves (at least, that's my assessment).

What I can't understand is why someone might here encourage others indiscriminately on a forum like this to pay such large fees to have this done for them. That is something that I have a much harder time understanding. To me, I think these paid relationships between a "system tweaker" and a system owner probably need to be the exception, not the rule...in today's technology-driven world.

JMTC/YMMV.

Chris

 

[Fidji]

Of course I have measurements before and after. Also full room acoustics report, few speaker issues corrected. I have set of filters loaded in one preset, so that I can run Optimizer by myself, if I change something in speaker placement or room acoustics. Speaker placement fine-tuned. I had some very specific requests re what I want - e.g. preset optimized for multichannel classical music.

Setting optimized for my setup [quite few of Trinnov default setting are not the best] for my specific setup. And I had the opportunity to observe and learn, which was my firm condition. I took it as paid training in calibration - I think I can do 95% myself, with available equipment being my limit. I do not feel like spending much more than 5k on mics, and UMIKs have their limits too.

Money well spent. No regrets. I have done the same with MadVR and picture calibration, this was no-brainer too. It made my modest Epson look like 20k projector.

Don’t get me wrong - i do not disagree with you, I think I can do today almost everything pro calibrator could do for me in my current setup. I also do believe that pro calibrators, lilke Adam, have their market - once you get into the realm of 19.32.10 [i picked numbers randomly] with 4 infrasubs and each speaker with its own separate DSP.. Lot of Trinnov owners have even no idea that they have one in rack, and Adam’s cost are in “other consulting services” as footnote. Best setups are those you never heard of, as owners have no interest in sharing, quite the opposite.

I did not read the thread, as who said what in PM and why is not of interest to me, so maybe it was mentioned https://www.trinnov.com/en/blog/posts/calibration-is-a-conversation-not-a-preset/ - second big thing that Trinnov presented at CEDIA is their “upcoming AI” tool, that will make it even more accessible to owners to fine tune their system, Looking forward to it. Will bring the “calibrator’s magic touch” to everyone with ability to listen properly.

I see, you have initiated build thread here - I would love to see your before/after measurements, maybe learn something new, and if I know how, for sure I will try to chime in and help, And maybe - you could follow path of other former hobbyists like Jeff from AVS, that is now also calibrating for money [not 5.5k, though]. This world is big enough for everyone.

EDIT: I paid significantly less than 5k for my calibration. And I have got one offer for over 10K which was well above any resonable pain point.

And re Adam - I will ne building new “final” HT + 2Ch setup soon, hopefully. this time I will do it diffrently, I am in the process of consulting HT design already now, while buying a house. i will work with Torsten [DieZwei] who id great guy and his partner Stefan is also super professional. They have set my DBA and I could not be more happy.

SInce I have joined AVS as Denon owner, having no clue, it was my dream to hire Adam, just based on his reputation there, I can afford it, so I will try to make it happen, if there is noting prohibitive - I will not pay flight from US and back, just for the privilege. And if all I get is “Fidji, there is nothing I can improve on your calibration’ this will also work for me. Not everything needs to be rational.YOLO