jhenderson0107
Active Member
I used GLM to integrate the 8351's to their W371's, then the L, C, R fronts prior to Trinnov calibration.
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Is a $5,500 professional Trinnov calibration objectively better than a knowledgeable DIY calibration?
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Perhaps -- but the argument it's different is that you can't easily "undo" the painting of a room, but you can with Trinnov.
It's also the difference between having a $30,000 robot doing it versus hiring a professional. The alternative isn't "zero experience" -- the alternative is the default Trinnov setup.
I would compare it to having a professional stylist picking out the optimal pair of sunglasses for you or going to the store yourself and trying the various ones they have in stock on. Hollywood stars/celebrities have dedicated stylists who can give you that n+1 level of style within context of whatever sponsorship that may exist. Finding a nice pair of sunglasses yourself might not be the *perfect* pair for you, but it might still be 9.9/10... and you can take off those glasses or wear something else if you're not happy.
The combination of non-permanence and Trinnov-underlying-performance narrows the difference in many cases. My two cents comparing homebrew Trinnov against professional Dirac/Audyssey and reference cinema-level sound at Regal, Cinemark, AMC etc.
Was old WF technology inferior or worsened?
Obviously, a dedicated (FIR) processing and amplification channel for each subwoofer can improve performance over a simple two-channel DBA in a less-than-ideal room. Obviously, this isn't entirely easy. Does new technology automate this process?
In https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64772539/ he talking about some clients who know nothing at all; but that is their right, others may know more.
I'm not planning on buying Trinnov and WF (although I have a slight discount)). I haven't seen any clear measurements before and after WF. But it would be interesting to see clear measurements before and after the WF.
WaveForming Study - L and T shape Room Recommendations
drive.google.com
Before, it was only validated on rectangular rooms. They now have data/support L and T-shaped rooms.
Their exact words:
Trinnov | WaveForming in L- and T-Shaped Rooms | Trinnov Audio
New Trinnov simulations show strong WaveForming performance in L- and T-shaped rooms, with clear subwoofer placement guidance for non-shoebox spaces.
www.trinnov.com
...The rear absorber layout proved far more forgiving,"
This is consistent with my experience of WaveForming improving the experience even when it was in "not-ideal" positions
DMill
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It’s hard for me to imagine spending over $5k for that last 5%. But for some, money is not a barrier. I’d like to think this consultant also teaches while he optimizes. For comparison, I’m an accomplished fly fisherman, but I typically hire a guide for new water. There are tactics and experience that person has to make that experience perfect. My expectation is that he will teach me the nuances of that river. As the saying goes, buy the man a fish or teach the man to fish. The same applies here where my hope is this individual is giving you the tools to completely understand your room and how to make it all it can be, even when he leaves and you decide you need a new sub. And even measuring a system in a space in general. If you don’t get that knowledge at least, I hope you have a ton of money 
Thanks for links. Although this is far from real measurements.
How is this different from a regular DBA\CABS?
My biggest concern that there is so much that can be done and it is quite easy to make things worse.
So unless you are spending money to have someone install something in your house from start to finish, I'd spend that 5k on room treatment
So unless you are spending money to have someone install something in your house from start to finish, I'd spend that 5k on room treatment
AI said "Rockwool insulation typically costs between $10 and $15 per cubic foot". Let's say we need 10 cubic meters of low-density wool for a passive rear absorber. Indeed, that will about $3,000-$4,000 for wool. Don't forget the place for this))
I am only discussing the lower decade and WF.
Conceptually identical. The main difference is Waveforming handles asymmetrical subwoofer layouts and abnormal shapes like and T- and L-. It's a bit like the opposite of what this thread is about. WaveForming is pretty easy -- put your subs as close as possible to the optimal locations, run measurements, click a button. With DBA, you really have to fine tune the delays and gain manually. *Theoretically* WaveForming may handle obstructions/obstacles better. In the rear array of DBA, everything is the same but with WaveForming, it might make some independent sub adjustments, etc.
Right -- not a lot of independent reviews
Trinnov Waveforming Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com
As a fan and user of Trinnov room correction for some time, I wanted to see if using the company’s new WaveForming system would make a discernible difference in my home theater experience.
hometheaterhifi.com
When I ran the calibration with Trinnov, the biggest pain was dealing with the remote login and how to do things on the Trinnov. And a bit of figuring out how to locate the microphone so the rear seats didn't block it and such. The process itself was automatic and results excellent so no need for messing around manually. I would have paid $500 to not have to deal with running the thing. But not 10X that.
If this was for full manual acoustic design and optimization, then the cost would be pretty reasonable. But just to run Trinnov optimization, it makes little sense to me.
If this was for full manual acoustic design and optimization, then the cost would be pretty reasonable. But just to run Trinnov optimization, it makes little sense to me.
To you, no, but among all human beings who do measurements of audio gear without drawing a paycheck to do it, you are among the most experienced. I've found that for any task that requires even the smallest modicum of skill, you can find people happy to pay someone to do it. Even IKEA furniture!
Chris A
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Ellery,
You and I seem to be simpatico on this point (your point quoted just above). In order to get better hi-fi audio, we have to individually experiment, look closer at our measurements for clues that we're leaving behind something important, and most importantly, we have to somehow learn a lot more about how well we hear and what factors contribute to that--and how to correlate our measurements with hearing in those areas.
All this takes is:
1) a willingness to experiment and learn first-hand,
2) lots of experimenting to see the measurements and hear the results (with lots of "playing around" at the same time to make sure we've found all the important parts),
3) immersing yourself in the literature (engineering, physics, psychophysics) to build a useful and comprehensive mental model of what's occurring and how to improve it, and
4) talking to others that are on the same learning paths on forums in order to find concepts, ideas, and experimental results that is different from what we know presently.
Paying someone to come in to turn on a measurement/correction tool that should be good enough as-is to do the job (at $20K USD for just the hardware/firmware) just isn't in my idea of how to do things--unless I really didn't care about the subject to begin with, and all I wanted was to be able to say that I paid someone $5.5K to do it for me. That's something else entirely.
The last time I looked, $5.5K was enough to pay for the majority of a masters-level class in engineering (3 hours lecture). That's a lot to ask for what you get with paying this guy to come himself to do it turn-key (without the full education of how to do it yourself in the future).
Chris
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I think it’s also fair to say there is a K shaped economy for HiFi and Home Theater too.
I recall TMR Audio once selling a single Sonus Faber Aida, and the claim on a message board was that a billionaire wanted a home theater built around the Aida, including the center. Since the speakers always came in pairs, they bought a pair just to get rid of one.
Sonus Faber Aida loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Sidebar 3: Measurements As the Aida weighs a backbreaking 364 lb, I drove my test gear to Mikey Fremer's place to measure the speakers in situ. After I'd done the in-room measurements, my plan was to perform the quasi-anechoic measurements in Mikey's driveway. Sonus Faber's reps had placed one...
Many of us would be willing to spend $550 for a room calibration. I definitely don’t have $100M, so for the billionaire, $5500 might be as little as $0.50 in perception. For them, it’s “I just want to show up, fire up my DCI-4K copy of a movie and watch in privacy”.
Magic Beans Audio started as a way to help simplify and standardize the measurement approach and target curve and when I went to look at current pricing, I saw that @joentell now offers remote room calibration for $200/hr. So potentially that’s a way to get some learning as an hobbyist and some professional help without $5k. But part of the reason it’s NOT $5500 is that you are responsible for measuring each speaker nearfield yourself (with the instructions in the app guiding you — but the measurement labor is still yours).
A friend of mine build a new home cinema last year in his basement with a Trinnov as soundprocessor, I would guess the total cost at about 500 Grand.
I doubt he even knows what the sound guy charged for the sound calibration, but I am sure it's irrelevant to him whether it was 500 or 5000 or 10000 Euros. It's just a line item on the total bill for many people who use a Trinnov, I guess one bulb on his projector costs more than that.
I doubt he even knows what the sound guy charged for the sound calibration, but I am sure it's irrelevant to him whether it was 500 or 5000 or 10000 Euros. It's just a line item on the total bill for many people who use a Trinnov, I guess one bulb on his projector costs more than that.
Audionaut
Major Contributor
There are forums where you get banned if you post private messages. I find it strange that events discussed in a private setting are being discussed publicly here, and that the other party is being addressed by their real name and can’t respond.
Does Adam Pelz know about this thread?
Couldn’t the facts of the matter have been described completely anonymously?
On the topic itself:
1. A service is always worth exactly as much as someone is willing to pay for it.
2. Whether you yourself arrive at a better or worse result during calibration is pure speculation as long as you can’t compare the results with one another.
Does Adam Pelz know about this thread?
Couldn’t the facts of the matter have been described completely anonymously?
On the topic itself:
1. A service is always worth exactly as much as someone is willing to pay for it.
2. Whether you yourself arrive at a better or worse result during calibration is pure speculation as long as you can’t compare the results with one another.
Those forums must be in the business of protecting companies at the expense of customers.
So it is absolutely clear: commercial communication from a company to a customer is as good as public in my book. There must be no expectation of privacy on the side of the company. People routinely post their customer service transcripts with companies, myself included.
If a company wants their communication to be confidential, they need to specifically ask the customer and get their agreement.
As to being able to respond, the company can simply join and do so. As a matter of fact, we welcome that.
FYI, OP asked about our policy in this regard before posting this thread and I explained the above.
What would those facts be? OP is asking if $5,500 is justified for this kind of service. His fellow customers can help answer that. Not the company wanting to charge that although they explained what they could.
There you go: OP is trying to find out who is willing to pay such a fee. If others are, then it is more justified in his eyes and he may indeed go along with it.
My company has done those kinds of theaters. We will not charge $5,500 just to run the automated calibration. We would however, bring in expert acousticians who charge as much or even more than $50K to design, model and simulate acoustic optimizations. Here is an example we used from Keith Yates when we had our first showroom designed, optimizing placement of 3 subwoofers (and finding the optimal number):
This kind of service is high value and is not something even an enthusiast can perform. What is stated in OP, is not.
It’s hard for me to imagine spending over $5k for that last 5%. But for some, money is not a barrier. I’d like to think this consultant also teaches while he optimizes. For comparison, I’m an accomplished fly fisherman, but I typically hire a guide for new water. There are tactics and experience that person has to make that experience perfect. My expectation is that he will teach me the nuances of that river. As the saying goes, buy the man a fish or teach the man to fish. The same applies here where my hope is this individual is giving you the tools to completely understand your room and how to make it all it can be, even when he leaves and you decide you need a new sub. And even measuring a system in a space in general. If you don’t get that knowledge at least, I hope you have a ton of money
You know, this reminds me that I once thought and wished my hifi dealer would provide such services. But they were simply not interested (3 in total)
Maybe times will change and calibration services by hifi dealers will help hifi stay alive.
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