Is 12 to 14 AWG copper wire without plugs worth trying? Or totally not?

[krabapple]

Recently I bought a Sansui AU505 in great condition to use with my Wharfedale evo 4.2.

Misjudging the Sansui supporting banana connectors from briefly seeing photos I found out that they are actually pin-connectors.

Not really a problem though. Since I dont have bare wires but premade cables with sturdy banana connectors I "McGyvered" my way out (in a good way) by carefull wrapping a paperclip around the connectors and using the tips to use in the pin-connector. Bit of tinkering perhaps, but the result is a Solid connected extension and it works like a charm. Great sound.

But.. asking ChatGPT (sorry) about a couple of things about Set amplifiers (not directly related) it recommended using 12 to 14 AWG copper cables directly connected (without banana connegtors) in order to get a similar more open midrange.(maybe not that necessary, but just wondering).

That is utter nonsense.

So is any 'need' for 12g wire on short runs like yours.

Use stranded 16g or 14g, whichever gauge best fits your AVR's terminals when you twist the bare end to insert. Or spend $11 and get pin connectors, which is what your AVR is designed for.

Your local hardware store probably stocks 16g or 14g 'speaker wire' on rolls that you cut to length in store.

 

[audio_tony]

Simple solution:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/WJSTN-Braided-Speaker-Spring-Loaded-Terminals/dp/B0B2KP39FN

 

[AJM1981]

First thing you need to stop, is trying to get good audio advice from an AI.

To answer your question - wrapping wire around a banana plug might work for a while buit it will be come. intermittent as the "wrapping" loosens. I concur with the suggestion of cutting off the banana plugs.

Re wire sizes, see here:

Speaker Wire

tl'dr - unless you are running long lenghs you are fine with 16AWG or larger. I use 12 - not because I need it but because it wasn't much more expensive than smaller gauges. Simple copper zip wire.

Thanks for the advice given. For now I have not yet experienced any connectivity issues. In case that happens, I will most likely get a new cable and save this one.

 

[AJM1981]

Today I came back to my old solution after I got a regular copper audio (electricity) cable at the DIY store. I have connected many loudspeakers and amplifiers in the past but just found out that the sansui au505 is unbelievable quirky when it comes to cable management.

The clips for the binding posts this amplifier uses seem to have a bare wire connection possibility at the top , although I highly doubt it is for that. I guess it is more the space the clips need for the pins.

When I use bare wire the space is too narrow to easily use it. Bare wire through the pins' opening does somehow (though not idealy) seem an option, but it is even more tinkering compared to my old solution that just solidly "snapped in" .

But even in this case the bare wire solution does not physically connect that well (as I assume) resulting in kind of a not so well executed "compressor" effect. I think it is not the cable itself but maybe a crossing of some kind between strands at bottoms end. Whatever it was. There was no polarity issue. And reconnection at both ends did not solve anything.

So, I am back at my solution to use my self made paperclip pins well wrapped around and attached to the banana plug and it works perfect again. From the experience I would recommend either this, or "real" pins. But as I dont expect an upgrade sonically I stick with this solution

 

[kyuu]

So, I am back at my solution to use my self made paperclip pins well wrapped around and attached to the banana plug and it works perfect again. From the experience I would recommend either this, or "real" pins. But as I dont expect an upgrade sonically I stick with this solution

Yep, I wouldn't expect an audible difference either, at least unless the mechanical connection between the paper clip and banana plug comes loose enough to make it a very high resistance interface.

 

[AJM1981]

Yep, I wouldn't expect an audible difference either, at least unless the mechanical connection between the paper clip and banana plug comes loose enough to make it a very high resistance interface.

I now understand that these "pin spring terminals" of the au505 are very different from the ones used in some 80s models for bare wire. It seems the clips at the open position grab the pins at two points (top and bottom), other than the glove a female banana connector creates. Which doesn't work with softer strands in any way, even when twisted solidly.

These seventies spring terminals might have supported wire, but probably more something like a long solid tin wire (paperclip diameter) otherwise they can't get much grip. The au101 in the same series 'only' seems to support bare copper wire, but the au505 is no hybrid.

I wonder how it worked when someone would move from the au101 to the au505 in the seventies. Would consumers get advice or just had to figure it out? Because if they would have tried regular copper wire, they would probably have considered the output heavily disappointing. Which it really is.

 

[kyuu]

Another option would be to use a ferrule on the end of bare wire (that's how I terminated all my in-wall wiring). Of course you have to make sure the crimped ferrule will fit in the terminal.

 

[AJM1981]

Another option would be to use a ferrule on the end of bare wire (that's how I terminated all my in-wall wiring). Of course you have to make sure the crimped ferrule will fit in the terminal.

Or something like this. Looks elegant. I would definitely do that if the backside would be exposed. But the amp is tucked away in a matching piece of tv furniture.

 

[Carlton80@0]

Optimally I would swap in a pair of binding post. Or use these adapters available on Amazon. The flexible wire should maintain a better grip than the solid version.

 

[krabapple]

I now understand that these "pin spring terminals" of the au505 are very different from the ones used in some 80s models for bare wire. It seems the clips at the open position grab the pins at two points (top and bottom), other than the glove a female banana connector creates. Which doesn't work with softer strands in any way, even when twisted solidly.

These seventies spring terminals might have supported wire, but probably more something like a long solid tin wire (paperclip diameter) otherwise they can't get much grip. The au101 in the same series 'only' seems to support bare copper wire, but the au505 is no hybrid.

hmm, no, I don't recall solid speaker wire being the recommendation, ever. It was only ever supplied with the cheapest 'all-in-one' systems.

I wonder where you are getting your information from.

I wonder how it worked when someone would move from the au101 to the au505 in the seventies. Would consumers get advice or just had to figure it out? Because if they would have tried regular copper wire, they would probably have considered the output heavily disappointing. Which it really is.

Oh, really?

 

[AJM1981]

hmm, no, I don't recall solid speaker wire being the recommendation, ever. It was only ever supplied with the cheapest 'all-in-one' systems.

I wonder where you are getting your information from.




Oh, really?

Would you say that, while dealing with more modern amps in the past, being able to connect both bare wire and banana plugs to a modern amplifier and being able to connect bare wire to a sansui au101, makes it weird to assume that both pins and bare wire would be clippable to a au505 spring connector? which can practically be clipped in. Only soundwise it is a bad idea as it turned out. I just gave it a try after having used the pin system correctly to start with.

P.s. I did not grow up in the 70s, so missed about every attention point when it comes to the variation in kinds of binding posts those days.

 

[mhardy6647]

hmm, no, I don't recall solid speaker wire being the recommendation, ever. It was only ever supplied with the cheapest 'all-in-one' systems.

I wonder where you are getting your information from.

Possibly Anti-Cables.

ANTICABLES: High-End Audio, Redefined

ANTICABLES redefines high-end audio with hand-built cables engineered for pure sound, unmatched dynamics, and world-class performance. Trusted by audiophiles worldwide, our award-winning speaker wires, interconnects, and power cords deliver transparency and musical truth at a fraction of the price.

anticables.com

 

[Chrispy]

Would you say that, while dealing with more modern amps in the past, being able to connect both bare wire and banana plugs to a modern amplifier and being able to connect bare wire to a sansui au101, makes it weird to assume that both pins and bare wire would be clippable to a au505 spring connector? which can practically be clipped in. Only soundwise it is a bad idea as it turned out. I just gave it a try after having used the pin system correctly to start with.

P.s. I did not grow up in the 70s, so missed about every attention point when it comes to the variation in kinds of binding posts those days.

Why are you using the old Sansui then? I certainly don't miss my 70s gear. Don't particularly understand how the two different spring terminals would make the difference you claim, tho.

 

[AJM1981]

Why are you using the old Sansui then? I certainly don't miss my 70s gear. Don't particularly understand how the two different spring terminals would make the difference you claim, tho.

Why?

What is the aim here? Did I offend someone? Are we ok?

I have used a Quad 303 / 33 for most of the time during childhood in my family's home. Later on also temporarily used that set as a student, but at that time I went on with my 90s Harman Kardon amp and had some others on the way.

So vintage gear is not new to me in that sense. I came back to it after literally finding an old 70s Pioneer in a barn a couple of years ago, which i had restored and modernize a bit with modern terminals. It was a light amp, but well finished. After reading about the amp, I crossed paths with Sansui and its history.

I got the au101 for my denton 85th Anniversary setup in the bedroom because I had a digital pre-amp / streamer. The au101 sounds well and the amp also looks good with the dentons and the interior. So went for that one in the master bedroom. Same goes for the au505, and the evo 4.2 in the living room.

Apparantly I was wrong assuming these terminals could handle strands without pin connectors as well, like more modern amps of the 80s and later have hybrid binding posts. And just tried it 'after' trying out the right method. So I wonder what's the deal here about having to justify choices for something.

My knowledge of vintage Hifi is perhaps not on par with yours, but would like to learn a couple of things from people like you and if you would assume I believe something that is not grounded, I am happy to adjust a thing or two.

 

[Apesbrain]

Wondering about some people's opinions here.

Should you tire of your homemade solution, Amazon has many inexpensive "banana-to-pin" adapters. Rest assured, though, that none of this will make an audible difference unless something is wired incorrectly. Don't let the L & R paperclips touch!

I wonder how it worked when someone would move from the au101 to the au505 in the seventies.

I had an AU-9500 in the '70s and 18-gauge twisted bare wire worked fine.

 

[mhardy6647]

There's also my personal favorite Agile Termination Adaptor (ATA):

CLEARANCE Medium Alligator Clip 22 AWG Test Lead Set 10 Pcs.

Medium Alligator Clip 22 AWG Test Lead Set 10 Pcs.Each 1-1/8" clip is crimped and soldered to ensure a good conduction. 10 piece set contains two of each: Black, red, white, green, and yellow. Each test lead is 12" long with 22 gauge stranded bare copper wire. Heavy duty flexible colored...

www.parts-express.com

 

[AJM1981]

Should you tire of your homemade solution, Amazon has many inexpensive "banana-to-pin" adapters. Rest assured, though, that none of this will make an audible difference unless something is wired incorrectly. Don't let the L & R paperclips touch!

I had an AU-9500 in the '70s and 18-gauge twisted bare wire worked fine.

I will make sure they don't touch each other.

The binding post of the au9500 and au505 are different

This is is the au9500 right? (Option to connect three sets of loudspeakers..)

Might be one of the first models with these kind of spring clip terminals that can be used to stick bare wire in. It was quite succesful as it was used throughout the 80s and later on. Used it on a couple of devices.

The terminals of the au505 are not the same and dont work the same either. I won't claim that they are special, maybe everything but..

When pressed down, the pin can be entered and it clips between staying in the "pressed" open position and giving a good output. But it does not really work well with bare strands, even rolled tightly. It kind of crushes them, and difficult to see if the strands of two cables in that case come cross underneath the clips. It also goes to the closed position as it does not hold on to something as with the pin.

I think it might work with a lot of luck, but I stick to pins. And yes, I might get some from amazon later on. Won't stick my life to paperclips.

 

[Robin L]

Why?

What is the aim here? Did I offend someone? Are we ok?

I have used a Quad 303 / 33 for most of the time during childhood in my family's home. Later on also temporarily used that set as a student, but at that time I went on with my 90s Harman Kardon amp and had some others on the way.

So vintage gear is not new to me in that sense. I came back to it after literally finding an old 70s Pioneer in a barn a couple of years ago, which i had restored and modernize a bit with modern terminals. It was a light amp, but well finished. After reading about the amp, I crossed paths with Sansui and its history.

I got the au101 for my denton 85th Anniversary setup in the bedroom because I had a digital pre-amp / streamer. The au101 sounds well and the amp also looks good with the dentons and the interior. So went for that one in the master bedroom. Same goes for the au505, and the evo 4.2 in the living room.

Apparantly I was wrong assuming these terminals could handle strands without pin connectors as well, like more modern amps of the 80s and later have hybrid binding posts. And just tried it 'after' trying out the right method. So I wonder what's the deal here about having to justify choices for something.

My knowledge of vintage Hifi is perhaps not on par with yours, but would like to learn a couple of things from people like you and if you would assume I believe something that is not grounded, I am happy to adjust a thing or two.

There's certainly nothing wrong with liking vintage gear like your Sansui amp. However, it's good to know its limitations. I wasted a lot of time and effort trying to get fat speaker wire attached to 1970's gear, like my monster Kenwood KR 9600 receiver. The real problem with that kind of gear can be found in the spring-loaded speaker terminals. They were designed to be used with bare wire of thin gauge. I have removed those terminals and attached the wire from the speaker to the wire from the amp using wire nuts. But it didn't affect performance and was a pia to re-attach the terminals later when I sold that receiver.

I wanted to use 12 gauge wire, but the terminals wouldn't take anything larger than 14 gauge. But there really was no reason to use 12 gauge, the length of the speaker wire was less than 3 meters. In any case, stop worrying about using the fancy cable, get some 16 or 14 gauge zip cord and either solder the ends or get some pin connectors. The sound will be fine.

 

[AJM1981]

There's certainly nothing wrong with liking vintage gear like your Sansui amp. However, it's good to know its limitations. I wasted a lot of time and effort trying to get fat speaker wire attached to 1970's gear, like my monster Kenwood KR 9600 receiver. The real problem with that kind of gear can be found in the spring-loaded speaker terminals. They were designed to be used with bare wire of thin gauge. I have removed those terminals and attached the wire from the speaker to the wire from the amp using wire nuts. But it didn't affect performance and was a pia to re-attach the terminals later when I sold that receiver.

View attachment 448690

I wanted to use 12 gauge wire, but the terminals wouldn't take anything larger than 14 gauge. But there really was no reason to use 12 gauge, the length of the speaker wire was less than 3 meters. In any case, stop worrying about using the fancy cable, get some 16 or 14 gauge zip cord and either solder the ends or get some pin connectors. The sound will be fine.

These all are more powerful amps and you dealt with a different problem. But as the previous example showed. These you are showing are spring clip terminals. The sansui au505 has spring pin clip terminals. The opening is even smaller compared to your example.

 

[Robin L]

These all are more powerful amps and you dealt with a different problem. But as the previous example showed. These you are showing are spring clip terminals. The sansui au505 has spring pin clip terminals. The opening is even smaller compared to your example.

Then 16 gauge it is!