Is 12 to 14 AWG copper wire without plugs worth trying? Or totally not?

[AJM1981]

Recently I bought a Sansui AU505 in great condition to use with my Wharfedale evo 4.2.

Misjudging the Sansui supporting banana connectors from briefly seeing photos I found out that they are actually pin-connectors.

Not really a problem though. Since I dont have bare wires but premade cables with sturdy banana connectors I "McGyvered" my way out (in a good way) by carefull wrapping a paperclip around the connectors and using the tips to use in the pin-connector. Bit of tinkering perhaps, but the result is a Solid connected extension and it works like a charm. Great sound.

But.. asking ChatGPT (sorry) about a couple of things about Set amplifiers (not directly related) it recommended using 12 to 14 AWG copper cables directly connected (without banana connegtors) in order to get a similar more open midrange.(maybe not that necessary, but just wondering).

I know that measurements are not on the side of cable enthusiasts. But how about the width? I can get a copper cable around that falls a bit in the middle of 12 and 14 AWG for cheap, but is it worth anything besides "the idea of having a solid cable". I dont even know the gauge of my current one, but even spending a little money and time and figuring out it has not improved by the slightest bit is not worth it.

Wondering about some people's opinions here.

 

[kyuu]

"Cable enthusiasts" are really not worth listening to. Your "MacGyver" solution may not be causing any issue, but I would be a bit skeptical about the electrical connection of a paper clip wrapped around a banana plug. While it can be a bit hard to get over the idea of altering a perfectly good pre-made termination, the best solution here IMO would be to cut the bananas off (or just take them out if they're using set-screws or the like rather than being soldered) and put the bare wire into the speaker terminals.

 

[ZolaIII]

As long connection is firm and tight you can use what ever connection method you want. Bare wire will loosen in time so about once or twice a year you tighten the screw by hand. They do fall to 3.2 Ohms (if it's same woofer as on 4.1) but not in demanding way, still little thicker cable (which AWG 14, 12 is) is a good thing just avoid copper coated aluminium one's.

 

[kyuu]

@ZolaIII The AU505 doesn't have binding posts, it has what appears to be spring-loaded terminals:

 

[DVDdoug]

Direct wire with no plugs is fine, but not as "clean" or convenient to connect-disconnect.

I don't like the idea of adapting a paper clip unless you solder it to the wire.

You don't want solid wire. It's not flexible. You want stranded wire.

Usually 16 AWG wire is good enough unless the wires are extra-long. The idea is that wire resistance should be much less than speaker impedance. The resistance depends on diameter (gauge) and length. Wikipedia has a chart showing milliohms per foot (and per-meter). Multiply by 1000 to get Ohms per 1000 feet.

in order to get a similar open midrange.

Speaker wire won't have any effect on frequency response unless the resistance WAY too high and then it's more likely to affect the bass, depending on the impedance characteristics of the speaker.

 

[ZolaIII]

@ZolaIII The AU505 doesn't have binding posts, it has what appears to be spring-loaded terminals:

View attachment 447419

It works like clamp tho not great but it does work (pushing bare wire direct inside).

 

[Oddball]

Since I dont have bare wires but premade cables with sturdy banana connectors I "McGyvered" my way out (in a good way) by carefull wrapping a paperclip around the connectors and using the tips to use in the pin-connector. Bit of tinkering perhaps, but the result is a Solid connected extension and it works like a charm. Great sound.

Not sure I fully understand this, but paperclip is likely a good but not best conductor and then there is the point of how well it is wrapped around the wire. I would plug in the actual wire and be done with it.

As noted, if you need to unplug the connection from speakers often, might be good to have connectors instead of bare wire. Bare wire will be losing threads with manipulation so at one point might get too thin, or you will need to cut it out and put a fresh thread into the speakers.

 

[kyuu]

With that amplifier, if you do want a termination besides the bare wire you're going to have to use pin-connectors such as these.

 

[AJM1981]

With that amplifier, if you do want a termination besides the bare wire you're going to have to use pin-connectors such as these.

I circled one end multiple times tightly around the bananaplug, fits like a glove. The tip of the paperclip almost matches the pins' size. And i get the idea the terminal clips with the pinhole kind of more connect at the tips' end instread of having a full wrap around like a banana plug terminal. It works, but real pins offcourse might fit a minor fraction better and look better too. But there is no connection issue here, nothing is getting loose. A real pin would fit the same way.

About suggestions given. I will probably not strip the already premade factory cable with banana connectors and make it bare wire (on a side note, I also dont know if it is copper only or an alloy, but ok). I would like to keep that cable in one piece as it is ideal for quick swaps later on. But this sansui is quite permanent, so i might get a new cable besides this one if it is a minor improvement soundwise.

The sansui amp in combination with the evo 4.2 s already deliver a great soundstage as it is connected now, so it is not an urgent need. But just out of curiosity I wonder if these 12 and 14 AWG cables at bare to a degree have effect on the "airiness / stereo image" of the mids as suggested. So, not that much of a vertical frequency thing, but a horizontal imaging change which is not magic, but something I see rarely measured. If measuring results show no audible difference there, i go with the measures.

If this has no noticable effect, as there are people like you and others here who have experimented with it far more than I did, I will leave things as they are.

 

[DVDdoug]

But just out of curiosity I wonder if these 12 and 14 AWG cables at bare to a degree have effect on the "airiness / stereo image" of the mids. So, not that much of a vertical but a horizontal change which is not magic

If it has that effect it would be magic. There would be no scientific explanation.

but something I see rarely measured

Most of that can't be measured except maybe "airiness" which MIGHT be high-frequency response or the result of high frequency boost... Like most "audiophile terminology" it's not really defined.

The soundstage and stereo image can't be measured because with the sound REALLY coming from a pair of speakers it's obviously an illusion.

But you could do a scientific-blind ABX test to determine if speaker wires make a difference.

Floyd Toole says:

The important localization and soundstage information is the responsibility of the recording engineer, not the loudspeaker.

Speaker dispersion and room acoustics will have some effect, and of course your brain.

 

[DVDdoug]

A couple more thoughts...

I'd just use the heaviest-gauge wire that fits into those push-terminals. If you want bananas on the speaker-end you can add them.

Or if you want to use those pin terminals recommended by kyuu that's fine but I'd "feel better" if you add some heat-shrink tubing to insulate the exposed part.

 

[AJM1981]

If it has that effect it would be magic. There would be no scientific explanation.


Most of that can't be measured except maybe "airiness" which MIGHT be high-frequency response or the result of high frequency boost... Like most "audiophile terminology" it's not really defined.

The soundstage and stereo image can't be measured because with the sound REALLY coming from a pair of speakers it's obviously an illusion.

But you could do a scientific-blind ABX test to determine if speaker wires make a difference.

Floyd Toole says:

Speaker dispersion and room acoustics will have some effect, and of course your brain.

It seems the 12 and 14 AWG advice was for cables 10 meters or longer. Mine are two meters each. On asking about the paperclips it seemed fine, but steel as in paperclips could, compared to copper strands, have a small loss effect at eardrum shattering volumes with the au505 volume dial at 5 o'clock.

I would never want to figure that out.

 

[SuicideSquid]

It seems the 12 and 14 AWG advice was for cables 10 meters or longer. Mine are two meters each. On asking about the paperclips it seemed fine, but steel as in paperclips could, compared to copper strands, have a small loss effect at eardrum shattering volumes with the au505 volume dial at 5 o'clock.

I would never want to figure that out.

The difference in resistance between steel (or more likely a nickel/zinc alloy) over 1" compared to copper is almost certainly negligible. If it works it works.

Personally just to avoid a "MacGuyver" type solution that might fail if bumped (or just over time), I'd go grab $10 worth of 16 or 14 gauge copper wire and tin the ends (just put a little solder over the ends to seal the copper and prevent oxidization) and use that. It almost certainly won't make a difference for sound quality but it'll be more reliable long-term.

 

[Robin L]

I circled one end multiple times tightly around the bananaplug, fits like a glove. The tip of the paperclip almost matches the pins' size. And i get the idea the terminal clips with the pinhole kind of more connect at the tips' end instread of having a full wrap around like a banana plug terminal. It works, but real pins offcourse might fit a minor fraction better and look better too. But there is no connection issue here, nothing is getting loose. A real pin would fit the same way.

About suggestions given. I will probably not strip the already premade factory cable with banana connectors and make it bare wire (on a side note, I also dont know if it is copper only or an alloy, but ok). I would like to keep that cable in one piece as it is ideal for quick swaps later on. But this sansui is quite permanent, so i might get a new cable besides this one if it is a minor improvement soundwise.

The sansui amp in combination with the evo 4.2 s already deliver a great soundstage as it is connected now, so it is not an urgent need. But just out of curiosity I wonder if these 12 and 14 AWG cables at bare to a degree have effect on the "airiness / stereo image" of the mids as suggested. So, not that much of a vertical frequency thing, but a horizontal imaging change which is not magic, but something I see rarely measured. If measuring results show no audible difference there, i go with the measures.

If this has no noticable effect, as there are people like you and others here who have experimented with it far more than I did, I will leave things as they are.

Go to a hardware store. 14 gauge "zip cord" ought to be about right. Make sure that you only have enough wire for the distance from speaker to amp, with enough slack that the wire sits easily on the floor. Forget about those fancy cables, store them somewhere. The Sansui was designed before speaker cables got silly. Bare wire termination is fine. If the speaker wire length is 2 meters, 16 gauge is just fine and easier to insert into those tiny sockets on the Sansui.

Personally just to avoid a "MacGuyver" type solution that might fail of bumped (or just over time), I'd go grab $10 worth of 16 or 14 gauge copper wire and tin the ends (just put a little solder over the ends to seal the copper and prevent oxidization) and use that. It almost certainly won't make a difference for sound quality but it'll be more reliable long-term.

^This^

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

I came up in audio before banana plug speaker connections. I mostly twisted the ends of the wire till they were stiff and inserted them into the hole in the binding post or spring connector. The only difference I've seen with banana plugs is that they're easier to insert and remove. The important thing is good contact between the two connective surfaces.

 

[AJM1981]

The difference in resistance between steel (or more likely a nickel/zinc alloy) over 1" compared to copper is almost certainly negligible. If it works it works.

Personally just to avoid a "MacGuyver" type solution that might fail if bumped (or just over time), I'd go grab $10 worth of 16 or 14 gauge copper wire and tin the ends (just put a little solder over the ends to seal the copper and prevent oxidization) and use that. It almost certainly won't make a difference for sound quality but it'll be more reliable long-term.

In terms of just maintaining a solid grip over time for sure. I mostly keep my cables short so the gauge factor is not really at play. I also read that even cca would be fine. The only audible thing I ever noted with cables is being connected, disconnected or doubtfully in between. Also the well known polarity issues offcourse.

I got my current rather cheap but decent premade cable for no other reason that I could swap my Dentons and Evo 4.2s sometimes. And it just optically looks a bit better. Bit like the fake exhaust pipe on some modern cars. It compliments the design of the gear a bit more.

 

[AJM1981]

Chat GPT addition

Why 12 AWG Copper Can Help:​

• Lower resistance of 12 AWG pure copper can improve damping and preserve midrange clarity—you get slightly more punch and presence in vocals and acoustic instruments.
• It also avoids smearing in the lower mids, especially with that AMT tweeter crossover in the EVO 4.2.

When I replace my current solution for another, I will give it a shot. It will be a more sturdy sollution at least. No expectations soundwise here.

 

[Robin L]

Chat GPT addition

Why 12 AWG Copper Can Help:​

• Lower resistance of 12 AWG pure copper can improve damping and preserve midrange clarity—you get slightly more punch and presence in vocals and acoustic instruments.
• It also avoids smearing in the lower mids, especially with that AMT tweeter crossover in the EVO 4.2.

When I replace my current solution for another, I will give it a shot. It will be a more sturdy sollution at least. No expectations soundwise here.

But 16 gauge zip cord with tinned ends will have a firmer grip on the amp's awful connectors. The "Chat GPT" results indicate the result of scooping up a lot of what's online, posted by all sorts of folks with very different ideas about "what's real". Reality is that all of that Chat GPT result is flat out wrong. 12 AWG copper helps if there's a long run from amp to speaker. But you've got a short run.

12 AWG copper won't

• improve damping and preserve midrange clarity—you get slightly more punch and presence in vocals and acoustic instruments. avoid smearing . . .

None of that.

 

[antcollinet]

But.. asking ChatGPT (sorry) about a couple of things about Set amplifiers (not directly related) it recommended using 12 to 14 AWG copper cables directly connected (without banana connegtors) in order to get a similar more open midrange.(maybe not that necessary, but just wondering).

First thing you need to stop, is trying to get good audio advice from an AI.

To answer your question - wrapping wire around a banana plug might work for a while buit it will be come. intermittent as the "wrapping" loosens. I concur with the suggestion of cutting off the banana plugs.

Re wire sizes, see here:

Speaker Wire

tl'dr - unless you are running long lenghs you are fine with 16AWG or larger. I use 12 - not because I need it but because it wasn't much more expensive than smaller gauges. Simple copper zip wire.

 

[mhardy6647]

FWIW... "pin connectors" for situations like the one that spawned this thread were all the rage 20 or 30 years ago.
I still have a set (PartsExpress closeout) from years back in a drawer up in the hifi room: to date, unused.
(apologies if this was already mentioned/discussed/pooh-pooh'd )

This kind of thing: