Invest in better measuring speakers or room equalisation ? When does one or the other make a bigger difference in your experience ?

[markstein]

Floyd Toole has a whole chapter about reflections in typical listening rooms and their contribution to the listening experience in his book. You certainly know all that.

He also points out that an impulse response chart or ETC chart alone is not suitable to evaluate the audible effect of reflections, as the spectrum needs to be considered as well (a low pass filtered reflection is noticeable at a much much lower peak in the ETC than a broadband reflection. The direction of a reflection has a major effect on audability as well (sidewall vs floor & ceiling).

Topics: image broadening vs tonality shift, pleasant vs unpleasant.

Definitely an interesting but very complicated topic...

 

[Mike123]

I've never lived in a concert hall or a room larger than 50 square meters )) . But for ordinary living rooms, room mode correction is a must-have, regardless of the cost of the speakers. Especially since it can be done practically for free these days. And as for modern speakers, starting at $500 a pair, you can easily find fairly neutral and smooth speakers with little distortion. And suddenly, you might find that they're quite sufficient for listening pleasure .

 

[FrantzM]

My post wasn't directed at your personally but generally.

So how does your ETC of each front speaker look like only at only one single point? Post them.

A reverberant sound field means you don't have specular or discrete reflections or room modes. I can assure you that you have that unless the room is highly treated.

I see little reason to contribute regarding acoustics on this forum anymore. It's not science based unfortunately and is highly misleading.

@Bjorn

The final decision is yours to make . We, I, can only respect that, however what happens in this thread and some others is exactly how a Discussion Fora are supposed to work; their purpose, besides the social aspects (Hi Gals and Guys and ...) is for discussing. Discussions do not occur, when if everyone agrees.. all the contrary, it is dissent and understanding that fuel a discussion forum: We come here to discuss and learn. Some of us more than others but it is through the debate, that we learn more... and are able to extract more, from our Audio Systems.
would suggest that you explain to us what is the misinformation that you are talking about, I for one, being an ignoramus in the subject cannot separate the wheat from the chaff, so we (those who like me, wants to learn) woudl appreciate that you stay and sustain your point of views...
Best.

 

[Huskerbryce]

No such system sounds correct in any domestic room. Simple frequency response measurement would show large variations below a couple of hundred hertz. This results in boomier bass and exaggeration of some notes. All of which will be different than what was heard when the music was produced. DSP is mandatory in any proper system.

I have to disagree. No room is perfect. Dsp can correct some degree of room modes and reflection issues. However, in my experience the addition of such correction adds a layer of signal path that in most cases, takes more away than it adds. It might “measure better” but it does not sound as crisp and clean in other areas. Its a balancing act. Room treatment for me works better than dsp. Any additive that dsp provides in term of measurment can be heard audibly as a subtractive. It does something I perceive as not as good as the original signal without dsp. I can hear a difference that I personally don't like. With multiple subs and proper settings I have no large room modes. My sub response crossed at 95 is fine without dsp.

 

[Mike123]

Any additive that dsp provides in term of measurment can be heard audibly as a subtractive.

Of course, digital room correction isn't a perfect solution. Room resonances have their own Q factor and decay. This sound can't be stopped by stoped the signal from the amplifier. But in many cases, at least equalizing this resonance in amplitude is the simplest and most inexpensive solution. It can show how your music will sound without room resonances. After that, everyone decides for themselves. Those with the desire and resources can add multiple large speaker boxes, scatter them around the room, and achieve better results than with digital correction. Others, however, won't want to bother with this for many obvious reasons. I continue to maintain that digital room correction is the most effective solution in terms of cost and effort. But it's probably not the best in absolute terms.

 

[Purité Audio]

Eq in the minimal phase region of the FR is a complete inversion and audibly transparent.
Keith

 

[Bjorn]

Eq in the minimal phase region of the FR is a complete inversion and audibly transparent.
Keith

True. But only for a smaller area. Outside of that, things generally get worse and how depends on frequency.

 

[beagleman]

Indeed. And I guess that one of the good things regarding this is that DSP needn't cost at all.

The old mantra: Spend as much as possible on good speakers!
(I'm including subs as speakers here btw)

I was going to say, subs, and in my case DUAL subs did more to improve sound than just about any reasonably priced speaker could, and far more than EQ would ever dream of doing.

 

[Lsc]

I was going to say, subs, and in my case DUAL subs did more to improve sound than just about any reasonably priced speaker could, and far more than EQ would ever dream of doing.

I agree with you in principle but we are talking about a big difference in cost but I also feel that the baseline is the speakers that you get.

In my case the EQ is Dirac live which is $250-350 for my Mac mini M4 or Bluesound node.

The EQ can only improve your speakers so much. I think this argument needs more scope because there are many variables. For example if you have a cheap receiver with room eq., I’d say first get a decent preamp and DAC since the signal coming to the speakers need the most improving…just a lot of variables.

Also, there is nothing that says you can’t do it all. First get good speakers and subs w active eq and decent front end. Then add Dirac Live to improve a little more etc.

 

[Oddball]

I have to disagree. No room is perfect. Dsp can correct some degree of room modes and reflection issues. However, in my experience the addition of such correction adds a layer of signal path that in most cases, takes more away than it adds. It might “measure better” but it does not sound as crisp and clean in other areas. Its a balancing act. Room treatment for me works better than dsp. Any additive that dsp provides in term of measurment can be heard audibly as a subtractive. It does something I perceive as not as good as the original signal without dsp. I can hear a difference that I personally don't like. With multiple subs and proper settings I have no large room modes. My sub response crossed at 95 is fine without dsp.View attachment 501095

Should not draw general conclusions based on your use case. You do seem to have it pretty good - but not sure how that looks in decay and other relevant REW charts.

In 3 out of 4 rooms I had in last 5 years, bass response was not possible to manage by placement of multiple subs either due to placement limitations or to room itself. The one "good" room actually was working great, and against all odds, with only 1 large sub.

The fact that you had bad experience with "DSP" does not mean that all "DSP" is bad. There are the good fellows and really bad guys on the street.

Can't say that I would rather give one of my kidneys away rather than having Dirac ART taken away from me, but would certainly put up an epic fight in this unlikely case.

Things change, one should keep up with the changes as well.

 

[Lsc]

Should not draw general conclusions based on your use case. You do seem to have it pretty good - but not sure how that looks in decay and other relevant REW charts.

In 3 out of 4 rooms I had in last 5 years, bass response was not possible to manage by placement of multiple subs either due to placement limitations or to room itself. The one "good" room actually was working great, and against all odds, with only 1 large sub.

The fact that you had bad experience with "DSP" does not mean that all "DSP" is bad. There are the good fellows and really bad guys on the street.

Can't say that I would rather give one of my kidneys away rather than having Dirac ART taken away from me, but would certainly put up an epic fight in this unlikely case.

Things change, one should keep up with the changes as well.

Which component do you have that has Dirac ART?

 

[Oddball]

Marantz AV10 - 15 channel processor plus 4 independent sub channels. That and rest of the gear in my signature. Not shy to post the photos and graphs if needed.

 

[MKR]

This is true. My Revel Concerta F12 has the same tone as my Revel Salon2. Using an F113 sub to help with the bass, the F12 is remarkably good and is very enjoyable to listen to. It’s in my man cave where I spend a lot of my time since I have a computer desk there so it’s like my man cave/home office. Without the sub the sound is good and the bass is not bad but it does feel more like $1500/pair speakers vs something that cost much more. The F113 makes a huge difference.

That said, the salon2 produce such amazing sound (with no subs), from top to bottom, yes same tone, but different quality. Add the overkill Gotham subs, i told someone that I have a poor man’s Sonus Faber Suprema lol. But just for the record, the pair of Gothams make a smaller difference because the salons’ bass is already so good. But I’m stuck with them since they weigh 360 lbs each and are hard to sell.

Room correction done right can help at all levels but I think it helps more with cheaper speakers that need more help.

360lbs !?!? Yikes, how the heck did you move those things into your listening room?

 

[napfkuchen]

360lbs !?!? Yikes, how the heck did you move those things into your listening room?

That's how?!

 

[Lsc]

360lbs !?!? Yikes, how the heck did you move those things into your listening room?

Right? It took 4 people to get it in the house with a dolly. Then furniture sliders. Thankfully I don’t have to take em down to the basement. Since the salon2 are 146 lbs. combined it’s over 1000 lbs for the pair. I was thinking about reinforcing the hardwood floors from the basement joists but my bro who was a structural engineer said it was ok.

 

[MKR]

Right? It took 4 people to get it in the house with a dolly. Then furniture sliders. Thankfully I don’t have to take em down to the basement. Since the salon2 are 146 lbs. combined it’s over 1000 lbs for the pair. I was thinking about reinforcing the hardwood floors from the basement joists but my bro who was a structural engineer said it was ok.

Definitely some serious weight for a floor. You must have the Gotham? Those are $30k each. So not only heavy, but a price to match.

 

[Lsc]

Definitely some serious weight for a floor. You must have the Gotham? Those are $30k each. So not only heavy, but a price to match.

It was still expensive to me but I didn’t get the V2 version and I bought em used from a rich dude with a fancy home theater that was moving. This is where fortune favors the nag . He had em at $6k each so I was just going to buy one - telling my wife this is an end game sub that’s beyond what I ever wanted (I was initially shopping for a 2nd F113). Then I told my wife that I’ll need to get a 2nd one down the line because you need 2 matching subs where she gave me this weird/disapproving look as in, I just “approved” you getting one and you are already talking about buying a 2nd one? She then thought for a second and said offer him $10k for both so I don’t have to listen to you talking about the 2nd sub ad nauseam and browsing online for days on end.

This is the culmination of years on nagging lol. So, while it was still expensive to me, it wasn’t the crazy current retail. $10k for the salon2 and $10k for the Gothams, $2k for the JL CR-1 = my poor man’s Sonus Faber Suprema lol.

 

[Oddball]

It was still expensive to me but I didn’t get the V2 version and I bought em used from a rich dude with a fancy home theater that was moving. This is where fortune favors the nag . He had em at $6k each so I was just going to buy one - telling my wife this is an end game sub that’s beyond what I ever wanted (I was initially shopping for a 2nd F113). Then I told my wife that I’ll need to get a 2nd one down the line because you need 2 matching subs where she gave me this weird/disapproving look as in, I just “approved” you getting one and you are already talking about buying a 2nd one? She then thought for a second and said offer him $10k for both so I don’t have to listen to you talking about the 2nd sub ad nauseam and browsing online for days on end.

This is the culmination of years on nagging lol. So, while it was still expensive to me, it wasn’t the crazy current retail. $10k for the salon2 and $10k for the Gothams, $2k for the JL CR-1 = my poor man’s Sonus Faber Suprema lol.

Are you thinking of trying ART? Salons and Gothams would definitely deserve it .

 

[Lsc]

Are you thinking of trying ART? Salons and Gothams would definitely deserve it .

Yes at some point I’d like to try ART.

But right now I have a dedicated two channel preamp with HT bypass and the JL CR-1 active crossover that blends the mains and subs well.

I also have a Dirac dead end processor in the Emotiva XMC2 that just has Dirac live. I’m looking at the Monolith HTP-1 as a possibility but I don’t have any bass issues so I’m not sure how much improvement ART will be.

For music these Gothams are a bit of an overkill but for movies they do a nice job of filling out the room with tactile bass.

 

[Oddball]

Yes at some point I’d like to try ART.

But right now I have a dedicated two channel preamp with HT bypass and the JL CR-1 active crossover that blends the mains and subs well.

I also have a Dirac dead end processor in the Emotiva XMC2 that just has Dirac live. I’m looking at the Monolith HTP-1 as a possibility but I don’t have any bass issues so I’m not sure how much improvement ART will be.

For music these Gothams are a bit of an overkill but for movies they do a nice job of filling out the room with tactile bass.

Well, there is nothing out there comparable to ART really. Two biggest benefits are reduced decay and ability to fill in the dips in FQ response by having a different speaker play that particular segment. So it is not necessarily that 15dB dip can't be corrected any more, or the rest of the spectrum needs to be pulled much lower. This also adds additional clarity to the above 150hz range.

Take a look at the ART thread. Lots of people with multiple subs are quite happy and thought benefit was meaningful compared to Bass Control. In your case this means additional investment that is not insignificant, so best to research thoroughly. Also, ART does not support sub 20hz bass, but will pass it through without EQ. That transition might cause some dips or bumps, or for the lucky ones will go pretty smooth.

As far as blending mains and subs, ART does not work on crossover concept, so blending is really completely seamless in a good setup. This is how it looks in mine - measured 7 out of 9 bed channels with LFE in green and orange is average.