Invest in better measuring speakers or room equalisation ? When does one or the other make a bigger difference in your experience ?

[Marc v E]

Since I joined ASR I keep wondering about this question.

Sure, a well measuring speaker is a prerequisite to having a good sound, that can be equalised. However, ime, a fantastic in room response can be achieved with an avr costing about 1000, some bookshelve speakers costing about half of that and a sub costing about the same as the speakers.
A sota speaker like from genelec gives better imaging; a bigger speaker can fill a bigger room...but what else?

Then what gains can you expect when investing in better measuring or bigger speakers?
What if instead of upgrading speakers without equalisation you invest in an avr and subs?

To me the room plays such a big part, that room equalisation should be top priority at any price.

 

[Purité Audio]

A main component of colouration is the difference between a speaker’s on and off axis response, which equalisation can’t fix,
so both a fine measuring loudspeaker, and some filters to remove room gain in the low bass.
Keith

 

[Chr1]

These polls are often difficult to answer and more complex than can easily be summarised by such things.

Reckon, generally speaking the worse your speakers, the more important DSP and sub integration becomes. However, quality is not always directly proportional to cost.
Especially with home hifi gear.

 

[Sokel]

These polls are often difficult to answer and more complex than can easily be summarised by such things.

Reckon the worse your speakers, the more important DSP and sub integration becomes. However, quality is not always directly proportional to cost.
Especially with hifi gear.

All else been equal, what is directly proportional to cost is SPL ability.
Specially past the 110dB mark.

And not all speakers can benefit from DSP, they must be decent from their own from the start or else fixing on-axis will screw off-axis, etc.
(even at our amateur measurements, trying to fix room modes)

 

[Chr1]

Indeed. And I guess that one of the good things regarding this is that DSP needn't cost at all.

The old mantra: Spend as much as possible on good speakers!
(I'm including subs as speakers here btw)

 

[Sokel]

Indeed. And I guess that one of the good things regarding this is that DSP needn't be expensive. Or even cost at all.

The old mantra: Spend as much as possible on good speakers!
(I'm including subs as speakers here btw)

I would add to spend some even before buying speakers, treating the room as much as one can (and then some to hide the treatment as much as possible if it's not a dedicated room)
It makes things far easier, even if it's not full down low.

 

[Mort]

To me the room plays such a big part, that room equalisation should be top priority at any price.

You answered your own question.

 

[Marc v E]

Still questioning if I'm right and what others' opinions are.

To me the focus on sota speakers (in performance and price), a regular topic in the forums, is at odds with what my own experience is.

 

[Huskerbryce]

I do not like room correction. I prefer higher grade speakers, room treatment and getting the subs perfectly aligned and level matched. I have used eqs, mini dsp, audyssey and Dirac in the past. To me, it neuters the music. Sounds less lively, less dynamic, and almost mundane. It steals its soul. Ive ditched all room eq/correction and just focus on room construction and treatment. (Mass loaded walls, green glue, room decoupling, speaker placement, Absorption, diffusion and corner bass traps)

 

[tineared]

I have always believed that the bulk of the money should go to the speakers.
Equalization, subwoofers and room treatments can greatly improve the listening experience and should be added as soon as it is practically feasible
But the actual transducers that convert the electric current to soundwaves are critical for a balanced sound, particularly at higher volume
You can put lipstick on a pig, but...

 

[Purité Audio]

IME, very often for all sorts of reason extensive passive absorption in shared domestic rooms is just never going to be an option, likewise multiple sub-woofers dotted about.
Many ( male ) customers receive a huge amount of grief even proposing a relatively compact pair of loudspeakers.
Then consider the limited placement options, in reality a decent pair of loudspeakers adjusted to the ( traditionally furnished ) room is going to be as good as it gets.
Obviously if you have a dedicated room the world is your lobster.
Keith

 

[Keith_W]

Your number 1 priority should ALWAYS be speakers, proper positioning in the room, and room treatment if necessary. All this should be done even before you consider DSP. You want to do as little DSP as possible. If you have to make aggressive corrections, you are doing something inappropriate with DSP that is better addressed by a physical solution.

 

[Hear Here]

Of course, no DSP can correct the room – we all know that. All it can do is mess with your amp's nice flat frequency response to pander to the speaker or the room's acoustic failures. That’s undeniably how these DSPs work, isn’t it?

Perhaps best to resolve these issues by other means in my view. How many of us have seriously considered what can be done with our listening rooms to improve their acoustics? How many of us have considered what TYPE of speaker would be best installed into our own living room to achieve best sound without electronic jiggery-pokery?

The thing about DSP is that it is CHEAP and people with complex speaker systems (AV / HT) understandably don't have the skills to resolve their setting up problems, so DSP is the easy quick-fix solution. With 2-channel stereo, where audio quality is of paramount importance, we should surely not need to resort to deliberately spoiling of our amp's qualities, just because we have poorly chosen speakers, or rooms where acoustic difficulties are ignored, or we haven’t got our speakers properly set up.

I accept I’m in a minority here, but get the basics properly sorted and there should be no need to add an extra processor that the precious signal will have to endure. The signal certainly does suffer, although it needs a careful test to prove.

If you have the option to easily switch between No DSP and DSP Filter, try this. Assuming your DSP is only applied to bass frequencies (typically sub-500 Hz), choose a piece of music that is bass light (or even disconnect your speakers’ bass terminal straps if they have them), but with a high degree of top-end delicacy and detail that gets your goosebumps rising and generates a high excitement factor. [You need good speakers for this of course]. Play this piece while comfortably sat in the sweet spot, relaxed and with your eyes closed. Listen to the top end detail and switch between No Fiter and DSP and you’ll notice a slight but significant reduction in the top-end sparkle factor. Although the top end is not adjusted by the processor, the entire signal has to pass through this circuit, and it suffers as a result – as you’d expect if you consider the situation from the signal’s point of view! OK, that’s a simplification, but it can easily be demonstrated on a high-quality system.

There are ways around this by using an active XO to allow the bass only to go to its own amp (with DSP), while the rest of the signal goes to its own non-DSP’d amplifier. That’s how some speaker brands do things (Avantgarde and Marin Logan being 2 examples) and I believe the fully active speaker systems from Dutch & Dutch, Kii and others do the job of protecting the top end from unnecessary processing in their own ways. The objective of these designs is to protect the top end from any unnecessary signal processing.

 

[Purité Audio]

Your amp’s frequency response remains the same whether you use EQ or not.
What EQ can do is reduce room gain which is the cause of ‘boomy bass, so you can enjoy full-range sound ( if your speakers are capable) without the boom.
I would only recommend implementing filters in the low bass region, where room gain issues are more pernicious and the response is generally minimum phase.
Keith

 

[Chr1]

Also, as long as the signal is digital, there is no reason to see it as "precious". This is a rather old fashioned way of looking at things. DSP can be very beneficial if used correctly.
Particularly, as mentioned to correct room modes or simply to tune the sound to your particular taste.

 

[Huskerbryce]

The shorter the signal path the better. Less is more here. The best sound systems I have ever heard use a short simple signal path. Source——>DAC—> pre/amp—>speaker. High quality musical DACs do wonders for music. If the DSP room correction is in your preamp, you just took that amazing dac’s analog signal and digitized it to add processing. Neutered it. I look at my stereo and try to have the simplest cleanest signal path from recording studio to my ears. To each their own. DSP is one more box/circuit the signal passes thru and it most definitely changes the sound.

 

[Mort]

The shorter the signal path the better. Less is more here. The best sound systems I have ever heard use a short simple signal path. Source——>DAC—> pre/amp—>speaker. High quality musical DACs do wonders for music. If the DSP room correction is in your preamp, you just took that amazing dac’s analog signal and digitized it to add processing. Neutered it. I look at my stereo and try to have the simplest cleanest signal path from recording studio to my ears. To each their own. DSP is one more box/circuit the signal passes thru and it most definitely changes the sound.

Ha, and your room doesn't change the sound?
One uses DSP to correct for your room modes.
And no, it doesn't 'neuter' it whatever that means.

 

[Purité Audio]

DSP but would be pretty useless if it didn’t change the sound.
Keith

 

[goat76]

Still questioning if I'm right and what others' opinions are.

To me the focus on sota speakers (in performance and price), a regular topic in the forums, is at odds with what my own experience is.

In most cases, our loudspeakers are already in the ballpark of being good enough.

What makes the biggest impact on sound quality is setting them up properly in the room, and then dealing with the room acoustics to shorten and even out the decay times. After you get those things right, you can then iron out the remaining problems with EQ.

 

[Purité Audio]

Ha, and your room doesn't change the sound?
One uses DSP to correct for your room modes.
And no, it doesn't 'neuter' it whatever that means.

It means cutting of your testicles.
Keith