Introductions anyone?

[Thomas savage]

My name is Chuck Gerlach ------- aka audioguy on many forums. The photo in the avatar is me prior to plastic surgery.

I am, for the most part, an objectivist, though I do not believe we yet have determined how to identify all of the measurements that identify what we hear. Hopefully no one on this forum will start a thread on how massaging the footers under one of their components improves the sound (as did a frequent poster on WBF) -- and no measurements to back their position.

I started down the audio path in college (60’s). I hate to think about what I have spent, in the last almost 50 years, chasing “The Absolute Sound” and audio perfection. “The Absolute Sound” is not obtainable and perfection keeps moving. But I finally figured out that there is not an audio system capable of recreating a live event in any room - at any price. Multi-channel enhancement of 2 channel music, to my ears, is a huge improvement over 2 channel (but still not marginally close to a live event). I used to believe that a great home audio system could at least reproduce a 3 piece jazz combo. But then my wonderful bride surprised me for a birthday and hired a 3 piece jazz combo to play in our home. If live music is 100, then the very, very best audio system is a 10 - maybe!!! It is, to my ears, that far apart. So I quit the chase toward perfection (and the attendant expense) and decided to focus on “fun". While someone can tell you (or me) that our audio system is not a replica of a live event, only I get to decide if what I am listening to is fun. (Still ain't cheap - and it is still an addiction/interesting hobby!!!). There are few pieces of music that don't sound more "fun" to my ears when expanded to multi-channel. Given my age and how long I listened to JUST 2 channels, the transition took a while, but now there is no going back. My room is for both music and movies.

I am also a huge believer in digital room correction, even with some of it’s short comings.

Welcome to the forum chuck

 

[amirm]

I have known you as "audioguy" for so long that between the new avatar and name, have a hard time thinking you are the same person. But thanks or the intro. We built the forum for exact reasons and motivations you mention.

 

[Sal1950]

My name is Chuck Gerlach ------- aka audioguy on many forums

A great intro Chuck. Our ages, paths down the audio trail, and final conclusions are remarkably similar. Looking forward to getting to know you via ASR.
Sal

 

[Sal1950]

I never posted anything personal here since I had posted a extended writeup in the Philosophy header so I'll just link that here for anyone interested.
http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...s-your-audio-philosophy.381/page-2#post-14263

 

[tomelex]

Hi audioguy, you are in company of generally kindred spirits here, welcome Sir.

 

[Chuck Gerlach]

Hi audioguy, you are in company of generally kindred spirits here, welcome Sir.

Thanks. Let us hope it stays that way. WBF started friendly enough but went south very quickly. Put a gathering of like souls together in a place and things usually go well ..... until unlike souls show up. Liberals vs Conservatives, Atheists vs Theists, Traditional Medicine vs Alternative Medicine. I could go on (in audio we have our own versions: digital vs vinyl; blind testing, cables matter or not, etc.)

One would think the name of this forum would assist in having like minded souls gather .. but just like their are riots from dissenters at a Specific Political Party Rally, so might that occur on a web forum. Hopefully the owners/moderators will squelch quickly any of that kind of very activity prior to it getting ugly. Once ugly happens, I will be gone. Life is way too short. Way too short!!!

 

[dallasjustice]

You found the right place.

 

[Sal1950]

Thanks. Let us hope it stays that way. WBF started friendly enough but went south very quickly. Put a gathering of like souls together in a place and things usually go well ..... until unlike souls show up. Liberals vs Conservatives, Atheists vs Theists, Traditional Medicine vs Alternative Medicine. I could go on (in audio we have our own versions: digital vs vinyl; blind testing, cables matter or not, etc.)

One would think the name of this forum would assist in having like minded souls gather .. but just like their are riots from dissenters at a Specific Political Party Rally, so might that occur on a web forum. Hopefully the owners/moderators will squelch quickly any of that kind of very activity prior to it getting ugly. Once ugly happens, I will be gone. Life is way too short. Way too short!!!

Good thoughts there.

 

[Ben Dover]

You left the back door open again. No sanity check required. Audio Science forum eh?

Hello I am new here. I want to learn. Why does he leave the back door open? Is the an audio joke?

 

[Ben Dover]

My name is Chuck Gerlach ------- aka audioguy on many forums. The photo in the avatar is me prior to plastic surgery.

I am, for the most part, an objectivist, though I do not believe we yet have determined how to identify all of the measurements that identify what we hear. Hopefully no one on this forum will start a thread on how massaging the footers under one of their components improves the sound (as did a frequent poster on WBF) -- and no measurements to back their position.

I started down the audio path in college (60’s). I hate to think about what I have spent, in the last almost 50 years, chasing “The Absolute Sound” and audio perfection. “The Absolute Sound” is not obtainable and perfection keeps moving. But I finally figured out that there is not an audio system capable of recreating a live event in any room - at any price. Multi-channel enhancement of 2 channel music, to my ears, is a huge improvement over 2 channel (but still not marginally close to a live event). I used to believe that a great home audio system could at least reproduce a 3 piece jazz combo. But then my wonderful bride surprised me for a birthday and hired a 3 piece jazz combo to play in our home. If live music is 100, then the very, very best audio system is a 10 - maybe!!! It is, to my ears, that far apart. So I quit the chase toward perfection (and the attendant expense) and decided to focus on “fun". While someone can tell you (or me) that our audio system is not a replica of a live event, only I get to decide if what I am listening to is fun. (Still ain't cheap - and it is still an addiction/interesting hobby!!!). There are few pieces of music that don't sound more "fun" to my ears when expanded to multi-channel. Given my age and how long I listened to JUST 2 channels, the transition took a while, but now there is no going back. My room is for both music and movies.

I am also a huge believer in digital room correction, even with some of it’s short comings.

EDIT: I sang in a 200 person choir (with orchestra) for about 25 years and had season tickets to the Atlanta Symphony for the same period. Couple those reference points with the live jazz band in my home, and I have a reasonably good feel what live music sounds like - and audio systems don't come close.

Hi audioguy. I am new here and I like you mention live music. When you went to live music, did you ever measure it? Music is everything good. Thank you

 

[Chuck Gerlach]

Hi audioguy. I am new here and I like you mention live music. When you went to live music, did you ever measure it? Music is everything good. Thank you

I have measured SPL levels in symphony halls, outdoor concerts and indoor events, but I am not familiar with any completel set of measurements that will describe why live music sounds like live music and recorded music sounds like recorded music. While I might be guessing, dynamics sure seems to be part of the equation.

 

[FrantzM]

I have measured SPL levels in symphony halls, outdoor concerts and indoor events, but I am not familiar with any completel set of measurements that will describe why live music sounds like live music and recorded music sounds like recorded music. While I might be guessing, dynamics sure seems to be part of the equation.

I am thinking dynamics and the ability to hit short duration but extreme SPL peaks is more important that we were led to believe. When a key jingling has peaks of 120 dB at 1 meter, it doesn't require much stretch to figure out what a saxophone, let alone a drum kits exhibits in term of instantaneous SPL peaks. One reason why I will go likely with high efficiency speakers driven by serious power. Not adverse to 1000 Wpc @ 8 ohms amplifiers..

 

[Chuck Gerlach]

I am thinking dynamics and the ability to hit short duration but extreme SPL peaks is more important that we were led to believe. When a key jingling has peaks of 120 dB at 1 meter, it doesn't require much stretch to figure out what a saxophone, let alone a drum kits exhibits in term of instantaneous SPL peaks. One reason why I will go likely with high efficiency speakers driven by serious power. Not adverse to 1000 Wpc @ 8 ohms amplifiers..

Would you consider active speakers? Having owned them, they seem to do [at the very least] dynamics incredibly well. Funny you should mention the sax. When my wife had the jazz group in our home, the "blat" of the sax was so, so, so different than anything I have ever heard on any recording........as were the sounds of other two instruments !!

 

[Cosmik]

Deliberate dynamic compression is routinely applied in the recording process anyway, so the limiting factor may not be your hi fi system. I agree about active speakers, though.

 

[Chuck Gerlach]

Zero compression will still not allow recorded music to sond lke live --- not even close.

If folks would just recognize that recorded music is just another way to listen to music instead of chasing an unrealizable goal of matching live music, they would save huge sums of money and enjoy the music much more. Just my opinion of course!!

 

[Cosmik]

Zero compression will still not allow recorded music to sond lke live --- not even close.

If folks would just recognize that recorded music is just another way to listen to music instead of chasing an unrealizable goal of matching live music, they would save huge sums of money and enjoy the music much more. Just my opinion of course!!

It's off topic, no doubt, but I disagree... Sure, on paper, two speakers can't reproduce a 'hologram' of the original event, but as long as the bass and the dynamics are up to it (=big, active, DSP-based, sealed speakers), and once the reproduced sound is added to the acoustics of the listening room (=not nearfield listening), it's close enough. But as I said in another thread, trying to remove the room with DSP, for me, kills the illusion. Small slimline speakers, valve amplifiers, vinyl and so on, also kill the illusion for me.

 

[Chuck Gerlach]

We will then agree to disagree! A speaker designer about 40 years ago in Ft Worth built two
identical rooms - probably 100 feet apart. In one he placed various instruments played live with a direct mic feed to the other room. And the other room had 2 speakers placed in the room. Neither room sounded lke the other!!

 

[FrantzM]

I do believe that proper bass reproduction and dynamics are the next frontier in proper music reproduction. Many systems have problems reproducing proper bass dynamics and reach. Let's not even talk about bass smoothness. We are only now achieving it with the help of DSP, EQ and multi-subs. It has become almost an audiophile tenant to accept systems with no bass and limited bass dynamics. Realism is compromised when it becomes a mere word, an aesthetics rather than an objective with clear metrics.
I believe that more than ever in the history of Hifi, we stand at that threshold. Class D afford us plenty of inexpensive power and control in the bass. Progress brought to us by HT and the car audio enthusiasts, people for whom serious bass is a requirement have provided us advanced bass drivers plus of course the works of luminaries such as Welt, Devantier, Toole, Geddes et al. have shown us the best way to reproduce smooth and extended bass. One of the unexpected advantage of multi-subs which they advocate, is the bass dynamics afforded. You would be surprised to experience how good properly configured multi-subs with even lowly subwoofers are.. reach is stupendous, linearity is to be experienced to truly comprehend and of course dynamics is there in spade. Next is to attack with seriousness the issue of power compression in drivers. in my view there should be a measurements of the SPL a speaker is capable of, at all frequencies. Many audiophile speakers cannot play loud even for a few seconds. They squash down dynamics. I became aware of this recently when I heard an old Altec Lansing VTT ... Some call this "jump" I call it dynamic linearity. The speaker followed the music. From that point on, I saw myself going toward horns/waveguide/high efficiency speakers.
This IMO would take us closer.

 

[Sal1950]

Many audiophile speakers cannot play loud even for a few seconds. They squash down dynamics. I became aware of this recently when I heard an old Altec Lansing VTT ... Some call this "jump" I call it dynamic linearity. The speaker followed the music. From that point on, I saw myself going toward horns/waveguide/high efficiency speakers.
This IMO would take us closer.

As a non-engineer but a 50+ year music lover I greatly agree.
I owned Klipsch LaScala's for 32 years driven by a progression of top electronics both SS and tube, 20 years on VTL power.
Over that time I watched as the audiophile community turned their backs on large high efficiency designs to small acoustic suspension designs and believed they could make up what was lost with high power, long throw drivers, etc. They bragged on the low coloration/flat frequency response of the new generation but refused to acknowledge what had been left behind. Besides they had to bend to WAF and all that.
David Manley was very disrespected when he showed up at one of the big HiFi shows in the 90s with a pair of KHorn's or LaScala's, as was Sam Tellig when he wrote a rave review of LaScala's for Stereophile in 2006.
The "audiophile" community would always just cup their hands over their mouths and make fun of anyone who could still listen to or be interested in any obsolete, ancient, high efficiency (read dynamic) designs.
But the times they are a-changin. The large Asian horn trend and the reintroduction of HE designs in the US it appears to me that we are finally starting to realize what was lost from everything that was good about the best speaker builds of the 50-60s.
If you want a system that makes any attempt at sounding real, you can't turn your back on dynamics and the rest of the positive attributes that come from a HE design.
http://www.soundhifi.com/klipsch/sam.htm

 

[Thomas savage]

Well when I turn up ' Russian circles' 'enter' to realistic volumes I don't get a hint of any squashed dynamics... Just a huge sound stage similar to watching the band live. Except I don't have any nasty acoustic happenings at home and no one is spilling beer on me... Least I hope that was beer

No horn porn in sight