Introduction from a Newb and a digital set up question and why...

[voodooless]

I cant imagine a no loss of sound quality.

This basically sums up the whole problem.

Forget about most of what you read an heard about audio. It’s probably wrong, pseudoscience, or worse. Luckily you’re come to the right place to learn about what really matters

 

[Deleted member 91501]

Listening and learning.... thanks

 

[Deleted member 91501]

Native DSD sells their DSD 512 fs version of the music at almost twice the price of 96kHz FLAC. I seriously doubt the masters are any different, and if they are, it would be highly unconscionable for them not to disclose it. If done (transcode) correctly, there should be absolutely no audible difference. If you are to buy the DSD 512 fs version, you are paying almost twice and get less in return (larger file size and costs you more storage, and you can't apply any DSP for headphone or room EQ without first transcoding it to PCM).
View attachment 486363
View attachment 486364

No DSP is a negative...

 

[Deleted member 91501]

I'm not sure what answers you're looking for in this thread that wasn't in your other thread which is basically the same. You can store DSD files on a thumb drive and play them back on the WiiM Ultra but it converts them to PCM 24/192. I believe the NAD M10 will convert everything on line in to 24/48.

If you want to play DSD and DXD files maybe read the help on Native DSD. It's not as simple as plugging a thumb drive into a DAC you need the right software (J River , Roon etc..for example) and the right equipment.

Ii don't see the point of it but if you want to go down the rabbit hole it's not simple.

From one post to the other is no different. I'm new here so I thought a little background was in order that I failed to do in the fist post. I would take offense to people who just want a quick answer then disaapear. I hear people rant that this and that do not make a difference. Well it depends on how transparent your system is. Speaker wire was probably not going to help my Klipsch 600M/s....

 

[voodooless]

Well it depends on how transparent your system is.

No it doesn’t. The vast majority of DACs and amps are transparent, meaning they are indistinguishable from each other when properly tested.

Cables, speaker or otherwise do not make a difference at all. Once you have an acceptable cable gauge, any wire is fine, even a coat hanger. It doesn’t matter how transparent your system is. There is simply no way that a cable can improve sound, or that one would degrade sound more than another, and certainly not in the ways of that proze that you read in reviews.

Again:

Forget about most of what you read an heard about audio. It’s probably wrong, pseudoscience, or worse

 

[Deleted member 91501]

Room correction such as Dirac or wiims' room fit will give you tangible results. The theory of " break in" time for electronic components is a myth

I dont know enough about electronics to comment but but things made of wood and vibrate and play music like my guitar do " break in". Sonus Farber says they break in their speakers before sales but who knows and by how much ? Thanks

 

[Deleted member 91501]

I once believed in this (I even own a copy of Isotek); I no longer believe. I'm currently listening to 1 hour old speakers (Mechano23s) that I just finished assembling and expect them to sound as marvelous in a year as they do now.

Perhaps even better !

 

[eddantes]

Well it depends on how transparent your system is.

Does not.

Let go of your accumulated prejudices towards pseudoscience and subjectivism. If you need your eyes opened - see if you can participate in a properly set up double blind test - you will see that your ears are not a highly discriminating instrument, and on top of that you brain is a highly adaptable processor.

Despite what it feels like - we're trying to help you.

That's not to say that we dont have worrywarts and perfectionists here that will kvetch over the difference between 110db SINAD and 100db SINAD...

 

[voodooless]

I learned early on as a photographer that it was not " the gear" that makes the photographer however I did not consider myself a serious photographer until I bought a Hasselblad ! A possible analogy is not thinking that you were a serious music listener until you bought a Macintosh amp.

I have major issues with this analogy! As a photographer, you are the artist. You are in control of the art you create. You can use whatever you like, a toy camera or a Hasselblad.. it doesn’t matter! What matter is what the artist creates.

Audio reproduction is totally different. Here, you are not the artist. You are just the observer of the arts others people created. So like your photographs should be viewed in an environment that gets the best out of them; for instance a bright room with even lighting, neutral walls, nice spot in the wall. Likewise for audio reproduction, you want the best way to reproduce what was once recorded and mastered.

So again; In audio, you are not the artist! You are only the observer. And buying a MacIntosh amp is like plastering gold on the outside of the room where you hang your photographs. It’s might look nice, but it won’t make the photo look any better.

It seems you are so far down the audiophile rabbit hole that there seems to be no way back

 

[Roland68]

Yes thank you ! I had found a switch made by Stanley which used silver wires and cost 1600.00. Stil the physicis of breaking the signal path. I cant imagine a no loss of sound quality.
"mitigating cognitive biases" Please expalin....

Do you really think switches or connectors pose any problem as long as the quality is okay? And you can get a quality switch for just a few euros/dollars.

The recordings you hear go through hundreds of meters of cable, dozens or hundreds of connectors, dozens or hundreds of knobs and switches/toggles in the studio during recording and mixing. They pass through thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of components and are processed and converted both analog and digitally.

And yet at your place, a simple switch in the audio path causes a problem?
Doesn't that strike you as odd?

 

[LTig]

Perhaps even better !

No. There is no break in of speakers which improves the sound. For woofers the first few minutes may lower the resonance frequency to its specified value but this is an almost inaudible change in the deepest bass. Markus Wolff, chief speaker designer of Klein & Hummel and Neumann, told me this during a phone call in 2004. K&H measured the frequency response of each individual driver of all O300D monitors and stored them in a database, for possible use in their DSP crossover (Pro 28?) which could be added as an option any time later.

 

[voodooless]

For woofers the first few minutes may lower the resonance frequency to its specified value but this is an almost inaudible change in the deepest bass

And voila, you pick some well known phenomenon, then obfuscate it beyond recognition, and build a nice story around.

@Richardnyc, you seem to trust manufacturers and sales people a lot… their goal is it to sell you stuff, not offer you objective information.

 

[LTig]

I had found a switch made by Stanley which used silver wires and cost 1600.00. Stil the physicis of breaking the signal path. I cant imagine a no loss of sound quality.

Don't waste such an amount of money on a simple switch. 100 USD should be more than sufficient. Silver wire is snake oil.

 

[NTK]

No DSP is a negative...

Where did you learn these misconceptions from?

As this forum has "science" in its name, here is one of the main science based reasons for why DSP manipulation of the reproduced sound is an important, if not indispensible, tool for high quality sound reproduction in domestic rooms.

Every room you can find in a typical domestic dwelling, if it is not a true anechoic chamber, imposes its unique "personality" on the low frequency response of a sound reproduction system. It is the results of "room modes", caused by sound reflecting back and forth between the walls, floor, and ceiling. At certain frequencies (room mode frequencies), these reflections, together with the direct sound, combine to form "standing waves", which, when combined "constructively" (constructive interference), significantly amplify the sound at those frequencies. And when combined destructively (destructive interference), they can significantly attenuate the sound. These standing wave patterns are also highly dependent on the location in the room. Play some bass, walk around in the room, and you will notice the bass response varies greatly with location. How do you know your favorite listening spot have the right response?

Headphone listening is similar and the room is now the ears. Everyone has her/his/their unique anatomy which affects the frequency response.

Therefore, to have a truly high quality listening experience, these listening room effects needs to be compensated for, and that requires DSP. Know what to compensate for and how are far beyond what one post can cover. Fortunately, there is plenty of very good information on these subjects scattered throughout this forum.

 

[voodooless]

Where did you learn these misconceptions from?

To be fair, the way it is written, it’s correct The lack of DSP, is a negative

 

[DVDdoug]

until I bought a Hasselblad.

Off topic but there is a song that mentions Hasselblad: I Am The Six O'clock News by Larry Norman (A cynical rock song from the Viet Nam War era.) I had never heard of Hasselblad at the time, and I still don't know anything about cameras or photography... I had an instamatic.

you must have a great oven!

Next time you tell that story, make it about yourself. (You can let-on that it's a joke later.)

but never considered myself an audiofile.

I still don't. There's nothing wrong with the word (a lover of audio) and many (most?) people here consider themselves audiophiles. But for me it has negative connotations and most audiophiles are nuts!!! This is one of the FEW rational-scientific audio related resources. I consider myself a music lover and a lover of good sound.

I don't consider audio to be a "hobby", except when I occasionally build speakers or audio electronics. I consider it an "interest".

When I was younger I didn't have "audiophile money" and now that I have more money I'm still too economical (cheap) to qualify. I also never thought I had golden ears because I couldn't hear the stuff the audiophile publications were talking about. I used to go to the stereo store and listen to good speakers but other equipment didn't sound that different to me (except for phono cartridges). And now I realize that the audiophiles and reviewers were mostly fooling themselves... But, I've always been a "picky listener". The "snap", "crackle", and "pop", from vinyl always annoyed me. Most people, including the audiophiles, didn't seem to be bothered by it. It was especially annoying when it was MY record and I knew when that nasty click was coming... I'd be waiting for the click instead of enjoying the music.

This "hobby" isn't as fun or interesting as it was in the analog days... The fact is that most electronics are better than human hearing* (in proper blind listening tests). Most of the digital formats too. Even high-bitrate MP3 copy is sometimes indistinguishable from a high-resolution original (in a proper blind listening test) or you might have to listen VERY carefully to hear a difference. MP3 IS lossy... Data is thrown-away to make a smaller file. But it's "smart" and it tries to throw-away details you can't hear... It's not nearly as bad as its reputation. When I got my 1st DVD player, I didn't know that Dolby Digital uses lossy compression. Some of my best sounding music (to me) I own is on concert DVDs with 5.1 channel surround. (There are lossless formats for Blu-Ray but I don't have exactly same thing in both formats so I can't compare.)

David over at MCRU taught me the Philosophy that good Audio starts with the wall socket; clean power equals clean sound.

If you're not getting noise through AC power or brownouts, or some other problem, it doesn't make any difference. All power supplies are filtered and most are voltage regulated.

A few recommendations:
Audiophoolery
What is a blind ABX test?.
Controlled Audio Blind Listening Tests



* With high gain preamps (phono preamps and microphone preamps) it's not that unusual to get audible noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background). Sometimes you can get noise from a power amp too.

 

[Deleted member 85326]

Where did you learn these misconceptions from?

As this forum has "science" in its name, here is one of the main science based reasons for why DSP manipulation of the reproduced sound is an important, if not indispensible, tool for high quality sound reproduction in domestic rooms.

Every room you can find in a typical domestic dwelling, if it is not a true anechoic chamber, imposes its unique "personality" on the low frequency response of a sound reproduction system. It is the results of "room modes", caused by sound reflecting back and forth between the walls, floor, and ceiling. At certain frequencies (room mode frequencies), these reflections, together with the direct sound, combine to form "standing waves", which, when combined "constructively" (constructive interference), significantly amplify the sound at those frequencies. And when combined destructively (destructive interference), they can significantly attenuate the sound. These standing wave patterns are also highly dependent on the location in the room. Play some bass, walk around in the room, and you will notice the bass response varies greatly with location. How do you know your favorite listening spot have the right response?

Headphone listening is similar and the room is now the ears. Everyone has her/his/their unique anatomy which affects the frequency response.

Therefore, to have a truly high quality listening experience, these listening room effects needs to be compensated for, and that requires DSP. Know what to compensate for and how are far beyond what one post can cover. Fortunately, there is plenty of very good information on these subjects scattered throughout this forum.

View attachment 486408

Sorry if I was not clear . Not having any DSP is a negative . I want DSP. DSP is a good thing . Etc etc

 

[Deleted member 85326]

Don't waste such an amount of money on a simple switch. 100 USD should be more than sufficient. Silver wire is snake oil.

I would never. Just mentioning it in passing

Off topic but there is a song that mentions Hasselblad: I Am The Six O'clock News by Larry Norman (A cynical rock song from the Viet Nam War era.) I had never heard of Hasselblad at the time, and I still don't know anything about cameras or photography... I had an instamatic.


Next time you tell that story, make it about yourself. (You can let-on that it's a joke later.)


I still don't. There's nothing wrong with the word (a lover of audio) and many (most?) people here consider themselves audiophiles. But for me it has negative connotations and most audiophiles are nuts!!! This is one of the FEW rational-scientific audio related resources. I consider myself a music lover and a lover of good sound.

I don't consider audio to be a "hobby", except when I occasionally build speakers or audio electronics. I consider it an "interest".

When I was younger I didn't have "audiophile money" and now that I have more money I'm still too economical (cheap) to qualify. I also never thought I had golden ears because I couldn't hear the stuff the audiophile publications were talking about. I used to go to the stereo store and listen to good speakers but other equipment didn't sound that different to me (except for phono cartridges). And now I realize that the audiophiles and reviewers were mostly fooling themselves... But, I've always been a "picky listener". The "snap", "crackle", and "pop", from vinyl always annoyed me. Most people, including the audiophiles, didn't seem to be bothered by it. It was especially annoying when it was MY record and I knew when that nasty click was coming... I'd be waiting for the click instead of enjoying the music.

This "hobby" isn't as fun or interesting as it was in the analog days... The fact is that most electronics are better than human hearing* (in proper blind listening tests). Most of the digital formats too. Even high-bitrate MP3 copy is sometimes indistinguishable from a high-resolution original (in a proper blind listening test) or you might have to listen VERY carefully to hear a difference. MP3 IS lossy... Data is thrown-away to make a smaller file. But it's "smart" and it tries to throw-away details you can't hear... It's not nearly as bad as its reputation. When I got my 1st DVD player, I didn't know that Dolby Digital uses lossy compression. Some of my best sounding music (to me) I own is on concert DVDs with 5.1 channel surround. (There are lossless formats for Blu-Ray but I don't have exactly same thing in both formats so I can't compare.)


If you're not getting noise through AC power or brownouts, or some other problem, it doesn't make any difference. All power supplies are filtered and most are voltage regulated.

A few recommendations:
Audiophoolery
What is a blind ABX test?.
Controlled Audio Blind Listening Tests



* With high gain preamps (phono preamps and microphone preamps) it's not that unusual to get audible noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background). Sometimes you can get noise from a power amp too.

Thanks for your reply and the links. I've heard of the NPR blind test but tried it as know what the result be. Curious
What is the difference between an interest and a hobby?

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Greetings my name is Richard and I am a semi retired commercial photographer living in Brooklyn. I wanted to thank everyone who responded to my first post asking about a digital set up. I underestimated how active this group is but appreciate that its a large group of people each on their different sonic journey and willing to help others on their quest and without judgement. I learned early on as a photographer that it was not " the gear" that makes the photographer however I did not consider myself a serious photographer until I bought a Hasselblad ! A possible analogy is not thinking that you were a serious music listener until you bought a Macintosh amp. In both cases it's an expensive piece of gear that in reality is only a tool to achieve one's goal. I used to tell a joke to people: "A man is dating a woman and attends a dinner party hosted by a friend of the woman who he is dating. The host greets the couple and at a misguided attempt of flattery the host says to the man I know you are a photographer; you take some beautiful pictures. You must have a really good camera. The guest bites his lip enjoys the multicourse dinner and upon leaving turns to the host and says you're a really good cook you must have a great oven! Ok enough with attempts of humor.
In addition to being a commercial photographer I am an amateur musician; I played in a garage band in the sixth grade. Now I only play acoustic guitar and can tune it from "pitch" memory.
I've always had a better than average Stereo but never considered myself an audiofile. Until last year I had a pair of Klipsch 600 M speakers that ive owned for years and when I wanted sonic improvements I would often look to well recorded music: Steely Dan, Stevie Wonder, Pink Flyod etc. In the 90's I had an obscure tube CD player. I grew up with tubes. The family Stereo was tubes and of course the amp used in the garage band was also tubes back in the day. However I also embraced Digital. I switched to digital photography early on but still had my 8x10 camera for " serious" work. Two years ago when I decided to hang up the photography business I had some time on my hands and decided to build a nice stereo but do it within a budget. I enjoyed doing the research and learning about how speakers and amplifiers have changed so much in my lifetime. The "fun" or the " hobby" is that I am a bit obsessive and intellectually curious.; it was another challenge. I decided speakers would be 60% of my budget, Vinyl would be my main source when I want to listen to music. Streaming high res music using Tidal would be my casual listening while I'm doing dishes or cooking. I came up with a AudioClear Concept turntable with Satisfy tonearm a Ortofon Black LVB 250 ( Nude Shibata diamond on a Boron cantilever) , a Schitt StJarne tube preamp rolling military grade Mullard tubes from the 1970's. A NAD M10 as an integrated amp and streamer. Sonus Faber Sonetto V G2 speakers with Telluim Q Ultra black speaker cable. I discovered MCRU in the UK for power cables' a " Black Ravioli" for an addtional passive ground. David over at MCRU taught me the Philosophy that good Audio starts with the wall socket; clean power equals clean sound. I have a dedicated breaker to a Furutech wall outlet and a Furutech power condtioner for all my mains. Oh and I have two subwoofers: a SVS 13" driver and a SVS 3000 Mircro which is two 8" drivers opposing each other both with room control and a remote. I have bass traps behind my speakers, and carpet and other things to help the room. Don't get me started on my vinyl cleaning methods (lol!) . I have Dirac live but waiting for my gear to break in before I run it. Its not perfect but it sounds great and I love it !
So after watching too many Paul McGowen videos I heard about DSD. Could this be another challenge ? Its easy if you have a big bank roll. However I have never heard it. Is it some elusive, intangible unicorn? My obsessive self said hey if I can do it within a $1500 budget why not? This is why I am here. Everyday I learn so much. Last night I learned about Fosi audio. Running dual Mono amps and Opamp rolling for under 600.00 ? Sounds like my cup of tea.
All this to say " Why am I chasing DSD? Its another challenge, its another niche "collector" type fulfillment, it's my intellectual curiosity at work.
So what I've come up with is: a used Uralic Aries Mini ( did I mention I like mini componets not anything 13" x 17" in chassis size.) a power supply to match going into Fosi Audio ZA3 amp with upgraded Opamp. All DSD 512 friendly. The problem is attaching this to my Sonus Faber speakers. I would have to use some type of "Switch" the switch will effect the sound quality in a system this transparent. If you have any thoughts other than " dont chase DSD" : I would love to hear them. Thanks for reading !

Richard

unfortunately you've been hoodwinked by some audiophoolery. this forum is the antidote.

 

[NTK]

Sorry if I was not clear . Not having any DSP is a negative . I want DSP. DSP is a good thing . Etc etc

My apology for totally misinterpreting your post to mean the opposite to what it was intended to mean