Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

[IlyaP]

Shure V15V-MR
VN5MR:

Cartridge runtime is about 2 hours.
On a 1kHz signal with Orthophone lp, the crosstalk is -0.3 dB. I think you can do better tuning and azimuth and antiskating, but on a different tonearm. The SME 3012R is a great tonearm, but there are nuances with the step adjustments.
The total capacitance is -125pF (is shown on the graph). it consists of: tonearm cable with connectors and tonearm - 110 pF and the phono stage is 15 pF.
Damping brush is ON. The silicone in the hinges is fine, the brush lowers as it should.
Passes 100micron on Orthophone with no problems.

SAS/S:

I don't know the life of this insert, but I think it's been around for a while.
The total capacitance is -125pF. it consists of: tonearm cable with connectors and tonearm - 110 pF and the phono stage is 15 pF.
To my ears, I don't hear any problems with it. It sounds good, regardless of the bump from 15.
Damping brush is ON. The safety brush was not working. The silicone in the hinges was missing. I refilled them. It's working properly.
Passes 100micron on Orthophone with no problems.

If by ear, these Shure's sound a lot more interesting to me than the MP-500's. The Naga is one of the dullest heads I've heard. Regardless of how it's measured.
And the price of the mp-700 surprised me a lot.

 

[USER]

Shure V15V-MR
VN5MR:
View attachment 461028
Cartridge runtime is about 2 hours.
On a 1kHz signal with Orthophone lp, the crosstalk is -0.3 dB. I think you can do better tuning and azimuth and antiskating, but on a different tonearm. The SME 3012R is a great tonearm, but there are nuances with the step adjustments.
Tonearm cable with connectors and tonearm - 110 pF. The phono stage is 15 pF.
Damping brush is ON. The silicone in the hinges is fine, the brush lowers as it should.
Passes 100micron on Orthophone with no problems.

SAS/S:
View attachment 461030

I don't know the life of this insert, but I think it's been around for a while.
To my ears, I don't hear any problems with it. It sounds good, regardless of the bump from 15.
Damping brush is ON. The safety brush was not working. The silicone in the hinges was missing. I refilled them. It's working properly.
Passes 100micron on Orthophone with no problems.

If by ear, these Shure's sound a lot more interesting to me than the MP-500's. The Naga is one of the dullest heads I've heard. Regardless of how it's measured.
And the price of the mp-700 surprised me a lot.

Thanks for this. It would be of great help if your graph showed the total capacitance. I did a double take when I read 125pF as that doesn't make sense for this cartridge. This would help prevent confusion. Obviously this goes for everyone. Thanks!

 

[Thomas_A]

Shure V15V-MR
VN5MR:
View attachment 461028
Cartridge runtime is about 2 hours.
On a 1kHz signal with Orthophone lp, the crosstalk is -0.3 dB. I think you can do better tuning and azimuth and antiskating, but on a different tonearm. The SME 3012R is a great tonearm, but there are nuances with the step adjustments.
Tonearm cable with connectors and tonearm - 110 pF. The phono stage is 15 pF.
Damping brush is ON. The silicone in the hinges is fine, the brush lowers as it should.
Passes 100micron on Orthophone with no problems.

SAS/S:
View attachment 461030

I don't know the life of this insert, but I think it's been around for a while.
To my ears, I don't hear any problems with it. It sounds good, regardless of the bump from 15.
Damping brush is ON. The safety brush was not working. The silicone in the hinges was missing. I refilled them. It's working properly.
Passes 100micron on Orthophone with no problems.

If by ear, these Shure's sound a lot more interesting to me than the MP-500's. The Naga is one of the dullest heads I've heard. Regardless of how it's measured.
And the price of the mp-700 surprised me a lot.

My older JICO SAS/B also lacked damping so I added it. However the latest ones I boughr for my Shure V15Vx and V15V bodies both had damping working exactly as the original. Peaking is there but it can easily be tamed with R at 30-40 kOhm. But the lift can be a comprolise - the middle CA-TRS1007 sweep track is quite different with its lower HF. A little bit suprised by your distortion - a new SAS/B is usually down -30 dB or lower at 5 kHz.

Edit: Saw that this was not boron but saphire. My experience is that they peak a bit more around 15 kHz vs the boron.

 

[IlyaP]

Thanks for this. It would be of great help if your graph showed the total capacitance. I did a double take when I read 125pF as that doesn't make sense for this cartridge. This would help prevent confusion. Obviously this goes for everyone. Thanks!

Yes, I 'm sorry, I misspelled it. I edited the message.
The total capacitance is -125pF (is shown on the graph). it consists of: tonearm cable with connectors and tonearm - 110 pF and the phono stage is 15 pF.

My older JICO SAS/B also lacked damping so I added it. However the latest ones I boughr for my Shure V15Vx and V15V bodies both had damping working exactly as the original. Peaking is there but it can easily be tamed with R at 30-40 kOhm. But the lift can be a comprolise - the middle CA-TRS1007 sweep track is quite different with its lower HF. A little bit suprised by your distortion - a new SAS/B is usually down -30 dB or lower at 5 kHz.

Edit: Saw that this was not boron but saphire. My experience is that they peak a bit more around 15 kHz vs the boron.

Since I don't know the age of the SAS/S, I can't tell if there was silicone in the brush from the beginning. But it could have dried out. But I didn't find any traces of it. I am using a Traxxas 5130 100k. Can't remember where I read anymore, but it was picked up by the community for Shure use. Works well.
Maybe I should try other tracks on CA-TRS1007 and STR100 for comparison.
I haven't tried it with different loads, because I can only regulate without tees with resistors on Luxman eq-500, and it has a very large capacitance to use it with MM. I no longer consider eq-500 as a pre for MM, only MS.
But purely with measurement intentions I can try to record directly into the Scarlett with resistors in the tees. The total capacitance in this case will remain the same.

 

[JP]

How was it determined that the phono stage was only 15pF?

 

[USER]

The total capacitance is -125pF (is shown on the graph). it consists of: tonearm cable with connectors and tonearm - 110 pF and the phono stage is 15 pF.

That does not seem right to me. In my experience with 10 of those you need around 200pF+ to achieve a flat FR.

 

[IlyaP]

How was it determined that the phono stage was only 15pF?

I measured it. Passively from the rca input using the de-5000. And in active state by connecting an RC loop to the input and an oscilloscope.

That can't be right. That cartridge is flat at around a total of around 200-250pF. Please see all the other measurements.

I have 2 v15v-mr cartridges. One is mounted in Korf TA-SF11R, the other in SME3012R. The total capacitance of cables, connectors and the tonearm itself is 150pF for Korf and 110pF for SME.
I used 2 phono preamplifiers, Phasemation-EA500, 47k ohms, capacitance is not adjustable. I measured it as 15pF.
and the second one, Pro-Ject phono box rs2, 47k ohms, capacitance is adjustable in 50pF steps. Starting at 50pF. I measured it too, starting at 100pF inclusive, the setting of the pre matches my measurements. But the initial setting of -50pF has been measured by me, more than once, and corresponds to 30pF. At the 50pF setting, I count the project as 30pF.
I swapped inserts between the two cartridges, and measured each on a different phono stage.
Here are the measurements from phasemation:

Spoiler: phasemation

Here are the measurements from the pro-ject:

Spoiler: Pro-ject

The manual says “Capacitive load from 100 to 400pF will cause negligible change from recomended 250pF ”.
I think the difference between my measurements is negligible.

Here are the measurements that came with one of my cartridges. However, it does not show the capacity.

Spoiler: Shure report

 

[USER]

I measured it. Passively from the rca input using the de-5000. And in active state by connecting an RC loop to the input and an oscilloscope.


I have 2 v15v-mr cartridges. One is mounted in Korf TA-SF11R, the other in SME3012R. The total capacitance of cables, connectors and the tonearm itself is 150pF for Korf and 110pF for SME.
I used 2 phono preamplifiers, Phasemation-EA500, 47k ohms, capacitance is not adjustable. I measured it as 15pF.
and the second one, Pro-Ject phono box rs2, 47k ohms, capacitance is adjustable in 50pF steps. Starting at 50pF. I measured it too, starting at 100pF inclusive, the setting of the pre matches my measurements. But the initial setting of -50pF has been measured by me, more than once, and corresponds to 30pF. At the 50pF setting, I count the project as 30pF.
I swapped inserts between the two cartridges, and measured each on a different phono stage.
Here are the measurements from phasemation:

Spoiler: phasemation

View attachment 461090
View attachment 461091

Here are the measurements from the pro-ject:

Spoiler: Pro-ject

View attachment 461092

View attachment 461094
View attachment 461095
View attachment 461096

The manual says “Capacitive load from 100 to 400pF will cause negligible change from recomended 250pF ”.
I think the difference between my measurements is negligible.

Here are the measurements that came with one of my cartridges. However, it does not show the capacity.

Spoiler: Shure report

View attachment 461098

Your 180pF measurement results look like my 300pF results. I myself would not count a 1dB difference at 10kHz negligible in terms of phono cartridge FR. For everything else, including what is audible, for sure, not a big deal. But a reminder that most everything here is at around +-2dB total and so we can be more strict about this, which is a remarkable fact. (I have always said that Amir is much too lenient on phono preamp FR.) Everything seems to be about 50-80pF off from mine in a very consistent manner. Certainly the phono stage can complicate this but in my examples I am using a flat mm stage so that variable is taken out.

Pardon this old example using a CBS STR-100 but upon conversion (see the original V15 V-MR measurement) it pretty much matches your 180pF measurement. I'll see if I can find some Clearaudio examples.

Edit: At the time I only saw the 180pF result.
Edit 2: Clearaudio results

Whenever I get around to measuring this again I'll be sure to measure it at 100pF as this has piqued my interest.

 

[IlyaP]

Your 180pF measurement results look like my 300pF results. I myself would not count a 1dB difference at 10kHz negligible in terms of phono cartridge FR. For everything else, including, for sure, not a big deal. Remember that most everything here is at around +-2dB total and so we can be more strict about this, which is a remarkable fact. (I have always said that Amir is too lenient on phono preamp FR reviews.) Everything seems to be about 70-100pF off from mine in a very consistent manner.

I don't think it's similar. The change in direction is clearly at different frequencies.

For me my measurements are quite consistent with the measurements at 142pF from this post, it is as available by INDEX as the V15 V-MR 3

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

the orto is announced at 5 ohms... +16 is a big mistake for antiskating... much too much... (big mistake in the last hifinews lp and old at +15db)... not for antiskating..but tortures tests ! for the rest I don't say anything and invite you to check all that... including the validity of your...

audiosciencereview.com

In any case the cartridge is measured within the manufacturer's limits. +-1dB up to 8kHz. And beyond that by +-2....

Also, the issue with the capacitance of my phonos has already arisen on the MR-500 measurements. There it seemed to agree with the way it should be.

 

[JP]

I measured it. Passively from the rca input using the de-5000. And in active state by connecting an RC loop to the input and an oscilloscope.

Not enough detail to tell me what you actually did. With an LCR meter the phono stage must be powered and you need to make sure it can handle the test signal without overloading.

In any case the cartridge is measured within the manufacturer's limits. +-1dB up to 8kHz. And beyond that by +-2....

That may be spec but its very rare to see one not handily exceed that.

 

[USER]

I don't think it's similar. The change in direction is clearly at different frequencies.
View attachment 461106

For me my measurements are quite consistent with the measurements at 142pF from this post, it is as available by INDEX as the V15 V-MR 3

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

the orto is announced at 5 ohms... +16 is a big mistake for antiskating... much too much... (big mistake in the last hifinews lp and old at +15db)... not for antiskating..but tortures tests ! for the rest I don't say anything and invite you to check all that... including the validity of your...

audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 461108

In any case the cartridge is measured within the manufacturer's limits. +-1dB up to 8kHz. And beyond that by +-2....

Also, the issue with the capacitance of my phonos has already arisen on the MR-500 measurements. There it seemed to agree with the way it should be.

One set of measurements is normalized and the other isn't so this isn't an apples to apples comparison. The way *I* would read the second set is as flat, taking into account only the left channel (and bringing down the right channel response in its entirety by half a dB.) They would not match for me. *I* would account for the respective bump on the right channel either as from a test record issue or slight azimuth mismatch.

Even more important, the loading is different at 54k ohm resistance. So again, not a good example for comparison. The FR is "boosted" by that loading.

I think this demonstrates my point, actually, with loading below 200pF bringing down the FR some (at standard 47k ohm loading). That said, perhaps not to the degree that I thought. But I am still very much thinking 125pF is much too low (from a measurement wankery perspective and not real life importance, lol) and that our measurements are off by about 50-100pF. Now I really want to measure at 100 and 150pF to see how much the FR drops.

@JP aren't some of your earliest measurements from a low load?

Edited for readability. Also wanted to add that the fact this is a discussion shows how remarkable these cartridges are and how well they can hold up. Will my Topping DAC last this long? Glad we are slowly coming to respect the medium on this site.

 

[dougi]

Not enough detail to tell me what you actually did. With an LCR meter the phono stage must be powered and you need to make sure it can handle the test signal without overloading.



That may be spec but its very rare to see one not handily exceed that.

My PEAK LCR45 says it uses up to a 1.0 V test signal, so won't be using that to confirm the 50pF capacitance of the Parks Audio Waxwing! (Which is not specified in any published material I think, but someone has confirmed it with them).

 

[eliash]

Just fyi, when I measured my MM preamp (T&A R-series preamp with modified MM module - all EMI/RFI caps removed from main board and MM module), I used a 1MOhm series resistor directly soldered to a RCA connector driven by constant level sine wave generator and measured the -3dB point with an oscilloscope.

2 important points need to be observed.
To exclude the oscilloscope's probe loading (~15pf) at the non-inverting input of the opamp in the MM module, I measured the level at the inverting input of the opamp.
This is absolutely OK, since the open loop gain of the opamp will reduce any significant level deviation between both opamp inputs. But you need to make sure that the opamp stays in its linear mode which can be easily proven by changing the generator level and watching the oscilloscope for clipping.

Taking into account the 1MOhm feeder resistor in parallel to the 47KOhm MM module termination this yielded a total of 45KOhm resistive load.
-3dB point in my case was around 75KHz (from memory), due to the high input capacity of the low noise opamp (~20pF) and the lengthy PCB tracks to the preamp's rear connector panel.
Subtracting some pf's for the RCA connector yielded around 45pf input capacitance...as accurate as reasonable...

I think this measurement is fine to judge a preamp's input capacitance properly in operational mode. Can be applied also for discrete differential MM preamp designs...just as an input for thought in your load capacity discussions, which I follow with great interest!

 

[IlyaP]

Just fyi, when I measured my MM preamp (T&A R-series preamp with modified MM module - all EMI/RFI caps removed from main board and MM module), I used a 1MOhm series resistor directly soldered to a RCA connector driven by constant level sine wave generator and measured the -3dB point with an oscilloscope.

2 important points need to be observed.
To exclude the oscilloscope's probe loading (~15pf) at the non-inverting input of the opamp in the MM module, I measured the level at the inverting input of the opamp.
This is absolutely OK, since the open loop gain of the opamp will reduce any significant level deviation between both opamp inputs. But you need to make sure that the opamp stays in its linear mode which can be easily proven by changing the generator level and watching the oscilloscope for clipping.

Taking into account the 1MOhm feeder resistor in parallel to the 47KOhm MM module termination this yielded a total of 45KOhm resistive load.
-3dB point in my case was around 75KHz (from memory), due to the high input capacity of the low noise opamp (~20pF) and the lengthy PCB tracks to the preamp's rear connector panel.
Subtracting some pf's for the RCA connector yielded around 45pf input capacitance...as accurate as reasonable...

I think this measurement is fine to judge a preamp's input capacitance properly in operational mode. Can be applied also for discrete differential MM preamp designs...just as an input for thought in your load capacity discussions, which I follow with great interest!

Not enough detail to tell me what you actually did.

That's pretty much what I did. I connected a signal generator to the phono input through a 47kOhm series resistor. I fed a sine wave of 10-40mVrms. I manually added frequency from minimum and up. . After the resistor I watched with an oscilloscope. When the voltage remained stable while increasing the frequency, it was a shelf, Vmax, then it started to decline. And at the voltage 0.707 Vmax, I fixed the frequency. This is the -3dB cutoff frequency. Further calculation according to the formula, I got the circuit capacitance, and from it I subtracted the capacitance of the measuring wires. the wires were measured by de-500.

 

[eliash]

Sounds good! Of course, I assume, you calculated with half of the 47K resistor value, since 2x 47K resistors are electrically in parallel (with low impedance generator)...and watched the preamp output for clipping...which could have some impact on the preamp circuit input impedance...

 

[Orfanik]

Ortofon Vinyl Master Silver

 

[Danish ear]

Denon dl160

• Turntable Sony PS-X800
• Tracking force 1.7g
• Phono stage Kenwood Basic C2
  • Capacitance 120 pF
• Cable capacitance 137 pF
• ADC Zoom Tac2r
• Test record CA trs1007

Hours unknown. The stylus has taken some beating while I was calibrating the feedback system on the Biotracer tonearm.

 

[melloncolliecat]

Would be interesting to see the inner tracks on the Clearaudio as well, since you have a linear tracker... @Danish ear

 

[Danish ear]

Would be interesting to see the inner tracks on the Clearaudio as well, since you have a linear tracker... @Danish ear

Need some help here. What tracks are you referring to. The innermost tracks on the my CA are unmodulated 1kHz tones.

 

[Thomas_A]

The second copy of sweeps are more in the middle. Not last tracks.