Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

[IlyaP]

Nagaoka MP-500

 

[Thomas_A]

You are now talking about the resonance of the cartridge-tonearm system.
I was referring to the mechanical resonance of the cantilever. Depending on the weight of the moving system (diamond, stylus, magnet) and the stiffness of the elastomer in which the cantilever is fixed.
The fact that it is a mechanical resonance is proved by the fact that by changing the total capacitance, its frequency has not changed, but by changing the resistive load of the phono-corrector it is damped.

Yes I did an analogy with adding mechanical damping at the fundamental resonance. Ideally only Q should be affected but visually, the peak is also shifted. And as mentioned, stylii seem to vary, for unknown reasons. Looking at the cross-talk signal there is one peak around 7 kHz and second one at 11-12 kHz. Not sure what is going on here.

That said, you are getting odd result with the Nagaoka; the cross-talk disappeared in one of the graphs, and it looks a bit odd. At the end of the spectrum it looks as if the mechanical resonance is > 20 kHz. Something wrong with the loading figures (same trend for both cartridges), to me it looks as 500-600 pF?

Can you share the sweeps?

 

[Bland_username42069]

Ilya’s measurements for Nagaoka MP 500 seem to match Paul Miller’s.

Nagaoka MP-500 Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report Last tested over a decade ago [HFN Feb '11], Nagaoka's 'Moving Permalloy' pick-up has remained very consistent in production. By current standards, its output into a standard 47kohm load remains a 'middling' 3.1mV (the Ortofon 2M series MMs will achieve up to 7mV/1kHz re. 5cm/sec) but...

www.hifinews.com

 

[Thomas_A]

Ilya’s measurements for Nagaoka MP 500 seem to match Paul Miller’s.

Nagaoka MP-500 Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report Last tested over a decade ago [HFN Feb '11], Nagaoka's 'Moving Permalloy' pick-up has remained very consistent in production. By current standards, its output into a standard 47kohm load remains a 'middling' 3.1mV (the Ortofon 2M series MMs will achieve up to 7mV/1kHz re. 5cm/sec) but...

www.hifinews.com

Yes, there are some odd results around. The 800 mH/145 pF combination however should give an electrical resonance around 15 kHz. This is not seen here.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Hi all,
After a long pause and trying the script, I have moved, reinstalled the system and now plan to measure the cartridges I have.
I'll start with the AT-95ML cartridge, it's new , hours 20.
Measured it - 540ohm and 570mH.
I used CA TRS1007.
The mechanical resonance of the cartridge-tonearm is 7Hz.

View attachment 458810View attachment 458807

View attachment 458811

View attachment 458812
The question comes up. With the resonance at 8-9 kHz. Why it's there?
In other graphs for this head from this thread, the resonance is around 10-11kHz. Changing the load changes the Q factor. But changing the total capacitance does not shift the resonance. It is already shifted by something.
If you calculate the electrical resonance for this head at 145pF, it should be at 17.5kHz. And for 195pF at - 15kHz.
But according to the graphs of this script it is not where it should be.
Therefore, something is shifting it. So this is a mechanical resonance of the moving cantilever-damper-magnet system? What else could it be?

View attachment 458830

View attachment 458831

You are doing something wrong with your recording , sampling rate is not correct somewhere . You see that by your resonance beeing below 10k Instead of above 10k, your second post seem to have the same problem..
I have seen the same myself when Source sampling rate does not match PC recording rate.

 

[narud]

Audio Technica vm540 body with vm45xml stylus
View attachment 458411
I decided to pick up a 45xml stylus after seeing jp's measurements of this stylus on a 740 body and what looked like its neutrality. however, this particular sample mated to my 540ml body ended up pretty much the same as the full 745xml cart i measured and returned. there have been reports of poorer tracking so i checked it out with the hifinews record. this sample performs as well as the 40ml stylus. i didnt check the last sample i had but i think this one is a little higher compliance than the first one i had. this one has the resonant peak at 9hz and the full 745xml cart was at 10hz. i dont know what effect the heavier body of the 745xml has on the resonant peak though.

unlike last time, i actually listened to music. i might stick with this combo for a while as it is a little less splashy sounding than the 540ml. even though this combo has a larger high end peak than the 40ml stylus, the 40ml is hotter in the 7-9k range and is more apparently bright than the 2db or so lift at 15k of the 45xml.

since this measurement was taken, i moved the cart over to my technics 1700mk2. the measurements i took after the switch to set the azimuth showed the same level of peaking. ive listened to a handful of albums and took another measurement. im getting less peaking now. suspension breaking in and changing sra maybe?

 

[IlyaP]

That said, you are getting odd result with the Nagaoka; the cross-talk disappeared in one of the graphs, and it looks a bit odd. At the end of the spectrum it looks as if the mechanical resonance is > 20 kHz. Something wrong with the loading figures (same trend for both cartridges), to me it looks as 500-600 pF?

Can you share the sweeps?

I am using canare da202. The cable has two inner cores and a shield. The strands are connected to the signal pins of the head, the shields are connected and connected to the ground pin. If I measure my 1.4 meter cable without connectors, it comes out 71pF (measurements on the de-5000) between the signal ones, 125pF between the shield and the signal one, and 129pF between the one signal one and the signal one plus the shield. I added 15pF to the tonearm and connectors. total 145..
I've now measured my cable with connectors and tonearm again. I got 151pF. So I was wrong by 6pF.
Does everyone take into account tonearm capacitance or just the cable?
I took another tonearm - 3012R and measured it. I got 11pF between signal and ground and 25pF between signal and ground, which is what I need to consider.
25pF is not insignificant.
The phono stage allows you to set the capacitance from 0pF to 300 in 50pF steps.

Yes, there are some odd results around. The 800 mH/145 pF combination however should give an electrical resonance around 15 kHz. This is not seen here.

Yeah, it should look like this if you count the electrical part.

But on the measurements, I got a different picture.
If we take into account the article by J. Kogen, B. Jakobs, F. Karlov (Shure Brothers Inc.) from AUDIO magazine (AUGUST 1973) :
"The frequency response of a phonograph cartridge results
from the combination of two frequency characteristics: the
mechanical characteristic of the stylus and the electrical
characteristic of the cartridge. Figure 10 shows these characteristics
for the original Shure V-15 I phonograph cartridge,
which was introduced in 1964. In the figure, we show the
effective frequency response, as well as the relative responses
of both the stylus and the cartridge alone. Addition of the
mechanical and electrical curves results in the effective
response."

Given this I assumed that the resonances I got on my measurements were a consequence of the mechanical resonance of the stylus, not the electrical resonance.
And then this mechanical resonance of the stylus is damped by the resistive load of the phono stage. And the decay after the mechanical resonance “absorbed” the electrical resonance.
But I'm not sure about that. That's why I wrote it here.
I think we need to take more measurements and add capacitance values.

You are doing something wrong with your recording , sampling rate is not correct somewhere . You see that by your resonance beeing below 10k Instead of above 10k, your second post seem to have the same problem..
I have seen the same myself when Source sampling rate does not match PC recording rate.

I recorded with Audacity program d 24/192, then resaved to 24/96 and sent to the script

 

[Thomas_A]

I am using canare da202. The cable has two inner cores and a shield. The strands are connected to the signal pins of the head, the shields are connected and connected to the ground pin. If I measure my 1.4 meter cable without connectors, it comes out 71pF (measurements on the de-5000) between the signal ones, 125pF between the shield and the signal one, and 129pF between the one signal one and the signal one plus the shield. I added 15pF to the tonearm and connectors. total 145..
I've now measured my cable with connectors and tonearm again. I got 151pF. So I was wrong by 6pF.
Does everyone take into account tonearm capacitance or just the cable?
I took another tonearm - 3012R and measured it. I got 11pF between signal and ground and 25pF between signal and ground, which is what I need to consider.
25pF is not insignificant.
The phono stage allows you to set the capacitance from 0pF to 300 in 50pF steps.


Yeah, it should look like this if you count the electrical part.

View attachment 459055
But on the measurements, I got a different picture.
If we take into account the article by J. Kogen, B. Jakobs, F. Karlov (Shure Brothers Inc.) from AUDIO magazine (AUGUST 1973) :
"The frequency response of a phonograph cartridge results
from the combination of two frequency characteristics: the
mechanical characteristic of the stylus and the electrical
characteristic of the cartridge. Figure 10 shows these characteristics
for the original Shure V-15 I phonograph cartridge,
which was introduced in 1964. In the figure, we show the
effective frequency response, as well as the relative responses
of both the stylus and the cartridge alone. Addition of the
mechanical and electrical curves results in the effective
response."
View attachment 459059

Given this I assumed that the resonances I got on my measurements were a consequence of the mechanical resonance of the stylus, not the electrical resonance.
And then this mechanical resonance of the stylus is damped by the resistive load of the phono stage. And the decay after the mechanical resonance “absorbed” the electrical resonance.
But I'm not sure about that. That's why I wrote it here.
I think we need to take more measurements and add capacitance values.


I recorded with Audacity program d 24/192, then resaved to 24/96 and sent to the script

I will not go into too much trouble-shooting in this particular thread, but it can be seen from the cross-talk signal that the mechanical resonance is approaching 20 kHz. There is also a peak of the main signal around 19-20 kHz. When you add 100k/145 pF you also see an increase of cross-talk by 10 dB at 10 kHz. So if inductance is 800 mH, the capacitance values must be off. As @Balle Clorin also says, there is something with the recording chain; you should not see the drop of distortion if it is true 96 kHz all the way. When the distortion autoscales to -100 dB, it is a sign that the recording chain is not optimal. When I record, I need to set the Audio settings in the computer + Audacity to 96/24 to get it through (the ADC is my Mac mini).

 

[IlyaP]

I will not go into too much trouble-shooting in this particular thread

What thread is this being discussed in? Where can we move the discussion to? I still have some interesting cartridges to measure. But if I'm not doing it right, there's no point in wasting time.

 

[Thomas_A]

What thread is this being discussed in? Where can we move the discussion to? I still have some interesting cartridges to measure. But if I'm not doing it right, there's no point in wasting time.

Trouble-shooting and various measurements of vinyl can e.g. be done in this thread (I hope @Balle Clorin):

Fun with vinyl measurements

I think Vinyl people in other forums do not want to know about turntable and cartridge measurements as they may get disappointed. I like accuracy and good design but that does not prevent me from listening to vinyl or measuring it. Measuring is a way to learn,understand and improve. Let us...

www.audiosciencereview.com

There is also specific thread for the script, but there it is focused on bugs and various improvements of the script itself

Phono Cartridge Response Measurement Script

This thread is intended to consolidate the technical discussion and further development of Scott Wurcer's frequency response measurement script to a central area. I'd like to keep this discussion about the tool rather than specific cartridges. Measurement Library thread is here. Usage info is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

(It is just a courtesy to the thread starter and the purpose of this thread to keep this thread as much as possible as a "database". But of course - the more cartridges measured the better, so it is welcome! But if there are problems that needs to be sorted out, keep it as a new thread or in the Fun... thread)

 

[Palmer]

They’re the same thing - Micro Line is AT’s marketing name for the Micro Ridge.

I stand corrected, thanks JP.

 

[mackat]

Audio-Technica OC9/III

I just bought this one used with an estimated of 75 hours of play.

I have it mounted to a heavier-than-ideal headshell, which may or may not have an impact on the measurement.

At first, the higher than typical distortion between 5 and 10 kHz caught me off guard, but the OC9XSL I measured last year was very similar.

It must have to do with the Special Line Contact 7 x 38 µm stylus.

 

[JP]

Ah, that was you.

 

[USER]

In mackat you have a worthy competitor.

 

[JP]

Good. Time for me to retire.

 

[mackat]

Ah, that was you.

Just couldn’t resist at that price happy to pass it along sometime if you’re still interested

 

[Danish ear]

Shure M95ED with a new dirt-cheap Analogis elliptical aftermarket stylus. Tf has to be min. 2.0 grams.

 

[melloncolliecat]

For dirt cheap, I'd say those are decent results! Is that a regular elliptical or their Black Diamond? @Danish ear

 

[acd]

Nagaoka JT80BK new (March 2025). About 20-30 hours. Tracks 100mu on the Ortofon test record.

VTA: The lower headshell surface (cartridge connection surface) is parallel to the turntable platter surface.
SRA: With the above VTA and VTF within manufacturer limits I assume that the SRA is according to specifications.
Azimuth: Cartridge rotated slightly anti-clockwise (view to front of cart) using Fozgometer.

The stylus on this sample is rotated about 3-degrees relative to the cantilever which strongly suggests LTA adjustment. This is difficult to do without proper equipment and my "Method" is not very accurate.

Measurements:

Measurements before LTA adjustment:

 

[guenthi_r]

AT VM95ML

First run with this script, crosstalk is missing, anyway.