Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

[DSJR]

Sometimes it's better not to know

The measurement shows that in the range of 1 kHz - 10 kHz There is a very big problem with crosstalk.

25dB crosstalk was quite usual for many cartridges back then. Only a handful of MC types seriously beat 30dB wide range I remember and my beloved Decca Gold Microscanner barely beat 20dB, yet still had good L - R soundfield, the front to back varying with the cut and basic mix played, as does a good digital transfer

Just in case I have it all wrong - please refer to the 1970s - 1980s HiFi Choice books scanned and listed on the worldradiohistory, UK editions, site, making sure to read the introductions, which go into considerable length to tie the tech side up as regards loading and so on (records and gear used all listed). It's why some time back, that I questioned the Shure V15V responses you all seem to get here, where the 'Choice ones had either flat to 10kHz then a 5dB drop to 20kHz, or a flat-line 5dB slant from 1 - 20kHz. All done at 47k loading though as far as I can remember.

 

[Geogeo]

25dB crosstalk was quite usual for many cartridges back then. Only a handful of MC types seriously beat 30dB wide range I remember and my beloved Decca Gold Microscanner barely beat 20dB, yet still had good L - R soundfield, the front to back varying with the cut and basic mix played, as does a good digital transfer

Just in case I have it all wrong - please refer to the 1970s - 1980s HiFi Choice books scanned and listed on the worldradiohistory, UK editions, site, making sure to read the introductions, which go into considerable length to tie the tech side up as regards loading and so on (records and gear used all listed). It's why some time back, that I questioned the Shure V15V responses you all seem to get here, where the 'Choice ones had either flat to 10kHz then a 5dB drop to 20kHz, or a flat-line 5dB slant from 1 - 20kHz. All done at 47k loading though as far as I can remember.

It's a waste of time to discuss measurements of faulty, inefficient needles. Such measurements should be presented in a separate thread "Measurements of faulty needles"
This measurement library contains cabbage with peas, resistance of measurements of working needles are measurements of non-working needles.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Just in case anyone is wondering, this is the member formally known as Quando and Aero. He does not understand the measurements and refuses to put any effort to understand them or listen to responses so do not take him seriously. We've already covered this with him. Perhaps he does not remember.

He usually gets himself kicked out rather quickly so best to ignore him.

I was reading some of his post and started to think the post from this guy seem very familiar.. thanks for confirming. Very annoying when people do not absorb any information or knowledge and keep posting nonsense and filling the thread with garbage , I will look for the ignore function.. But can he not be banned as before?

 

[Mark617]

I am not meaning to be antagonistic, just curious: what is the purpose of continuously publishing measurements for cartridges discontinued some 20–30 years ago? They are probably off spec, the styluses are not original ones and worn, etc. etc.

 

[USER]

I was reading some of his post and started to think the post from this guy seem very familiar.. thanks for confirming. Very annoying when people do not absorb any information or knowledge and keep posting nonsense and filling the thread with garbage , I will look for the ignore function.. But can he not be banned as before?

I've made the request. If the mods read this, we'd appreciate it if his posts are removed as they are full of repeated misinformation. Quando, Aero, Geogeo: I know you are interested in all of this but you just seem to bring toxicity with you wherever you go. Not sure if you are OK or not but I wish you well in everything that truly matters. I have no choice but to request your immediate removal if/when you show up again on this thread.

I am not meaning to be antagonistic, just curious: what is the purpose of continuously publishing measurements for cartridges discontinued some 20–30 years ago? They are probably off spec, the styluses are not original ones and worn, etc. etc.

Like I mention in the last page, read the first page of this thread if you are being earnest about your question. It is covered. Post 5 is a good one.

 

[USER]

@VinyLuke if you want to get rid of that Shure V15 IV with Shure VN45MR stylus that is "faulty" and not "functional" I will gladly take it off your hands. Pretty sure hundreds of people reading this thread would too.

 

[VinyLuke]

Gentleman, really I would suggest you all to ignore this person. He has contributed nothing here but complaining and constant nothing-too-brief criticism. He thinks he is canny but I think you understand now how it is in truth. I dont give a flying F what he thinks and post here and I wish that for you as well
And if anyone is interested, my Shure V15 IV with MR stylus sounds GREAT!

 

[VinyLuke]

I am not meaning to be antagonistic, just curious: what is the purpose of continuously publishing measurements for cartridges discontinued some 20–30 years ago? They are probably off spec, the styluses are not original ones and worn, etc. etc.

You would be suprised how many people are still looking and buying those old original cartridges. Don't you think it is good to have them here measured along with new models?

 

[Geogeo]

my Shure V15 IV with MR stylus sounds GREAT!

Is this difference in crosstalk between channels normal? Should it be like this?
No, it is not normal, it should not be like this.
There is some problem that causes the stylus tip not to work properly in the groove of the record, which is why there is such an absurdly high difference in crosstalk between channels.
You should check what is causing this problem, whether it is a faulty stylus, needle tip is glued in crookedly, bad suspension of the cantilever, bad suspension of the resonance damping system (brush) or bad configuration of the arm, bad geometry, etc.
This measurement script is ruthless and inexorable shows all errors and irregularities. That's why it's a great tool!

The difference in crosstalk between channels should be fairly equal:

 

[USER]

Guys, please move this conversation elsewhere.

 

[Geogeo]

Please read these examples. Which ones are faulty?

Soundsmith Familientest: 6 High Output MI-Tonabnehmer - LowBeats

De Firma Soundsmith aus dem New Yorker Norden hat eine Vielzahl von Tonabnehmern im Programm, insges

www.lowbeats.de

I am not interested in such descriptions.
Until I measure what I have myself, I cannot be certain of anything.

 

[wpbilderback]

This is my first post here. Thank you to @USER for creating this thread and to @Scott worker and @JP for writing the script and making it available. I've read through this thread and have learned a lot from it.

I have a large collection of vintage and some new cartridges, and I am in the process of taking measurements of them. I have the CBS Laboratories STR-130 Professional Test Record. I purchased it used, and I don't know how much wear it has. It does have some clicks and pops. My previous method of measuring carts was to record the spot frequency tracks, manually measure those in Adobe Audition, enter that information into a spreadsheet, and then generate a frequency response chart. Needless to say, that was a time-intensive task. This is much easier, and the frequency response results I've generated so far using the sweep mostly align with the results I got from the spot-frequency method.

One issue I have encountered with a few cartridges is wildly oscillating measurements in the 15 to 20 kHz region. See the chart below from a new Sumiko Pearl cartridge a friend loaned me.

What could be causing the rapid fluctuations in the measurements? The cartridge seems unlikely to have such rapid variation in frequency response, although I suppose it's possible. Could it be from damage to the test record? If so, why do I see it with only some carts? Could it be the result of user error or poor setup? Is this a known issue with the STR-130? (I have a Denon XG-7001 Technical Test Record on the way that was listed on Discogs as in NM condition, so I'll take new measurements when I receive that.)

Setting aside the issues above 15 kHz, these measurements confirm my subjective impression of the cartridge as dark-sounding. The frequency response starts to drop off around 2 kHz and is down about 3 dB at 10 kHz. Raising the capacitance and resistance can alleviate this to some degree.

Equipment as follows:
Technics SL-1200 Mk.2 turntable/tonearm with KAB damper
Darlington Labs MM6B phono preamp
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 Gen. 3 ADC
CBS Laboraties STR-130
Sumiko Pearl cartridge with new, stock stylus

I'll be happy to post other results once I'm more confident I'm doing this right. In the meantime, any feedback on this issue would be appreciated. Other than this, my results look pretty standard.

 

[USER]

This is my first post here. Thank you to @USER for creating this thread and to @Scott worker and @JP for writing the script and making it available. I've read through this thread and have learned a lot from it.

I have a large collection of vintage and some new cartridges, and I am in the process of taking measurements of them. I have the CBS Laboratories STR-130 Professional Test Record. I purchased it used, and I don't know how much wear it has. It does have some clicks and pops. My previous method of measuring carts was to record the spot frequency tracks, manually measure those in Adobe Audition, enter that information into a spreadsheet, and then generate a frequency response chart. Needless to say, that was a time-intensive task. This is much easier, and the frequency response results I've generated so far using the sweep mostly align with the results I got from the spot-frequency method.

One issue I have encountered with a few cartridges is wildly oscillating measurements in the 15 to 20 kHz region. See the chart below from a new Sumiko Pearl cartridge a friend loaned me.

View attachment 450465
What could be causing the rapid fluctuations in the measurements? The cartridge seems unlikely to have such rapid variation in frequency response, although I suppose it's possible. Could it be from damage to the test record? If so, why do I see it with only some carts? Could it be the result of user error or poor setup? Is this a known issue with the STR-130? (I have a Denon XG-7001 Technical Test Record on the way that was listed on Discogs as in NM condition, so I'll take new measurements when I receive that.)

Setting aside the issues above 15 kHz, these measurements confirm my subjective impression of the cartridge as dark-sounding. The frequency response starts to drop off around 2 kHz and is down about 3 dB at 10 kHz. Raising the capacitance and resistance can alleviate this to some degree.

Equipment as follows:
Technics SL-1200 Mk.2 turntable/tonearm with KAB damper
Darlington Labs MM6B phono preamp
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 Gen. 3 ADC
CBS Laboraties STR-130
Sumiko Pearl cartridge with new, stock stylus

I'll be happy to post other results once I'm more confident I'm doing this right. In the meantime, any feedback on this issue would be appreciated. Other than this, my results look pretty standard.

Thanks for participating. It is always great to have new members join us.

Note that the script is made expressly for JVC TRS-1007, CA TRS-1007, and CBS STR-100 Issue 3. As far as I know CBS STR-130 is not reliable for frequency response data. It certainly looks like it is not a great match for the script but the scale is off so it is hard to read the results.

STR-100 is not perfect, but we seem to know how much it is off (not so much for FR, extremely limited for crosstalk, a bit less limited for distortion at 1kHz) so it is usable for our purposes, but it is not at the level of CA TRS-1007. However, as STR-100 was more readily available (and cheaper) than and relatively close to JVC TRS-1007 (the standard) at the time of the script's creation it was adopted for the purposes of the project. Please see the first measurement of the Shure V15 V-MR for more information about how those test records compare.

I do recommend you find a copy of STR-100 Issue 3 as they are becoming harder to find and pricier.

For the time being play with the plotstyle and ovelim settings to scale it better and make it easier to read and then compare your results to my measurement of the Sumiko Pearl.

plotstyle = 1

ovdylim = 1
ovdylimvalue = [-65,5]

 

[JP]

The script can plot pretty much any sweep, so it’s not that it’s designed for certain test records, rather no one has done comparative analysis of other test records to see how accurate they are.

 

[cgallery]

One issue I have encountered with a few cartridges is wildly oscillating measurements in the 15 to 20 kHz region. See the chart below from a new Sumiko Pearl cartridge a friend loaned me.

Have any cartridges measured with the same album NOT exhibited this behavior?

 

[USER]

This is my first post here. Thank you to @USER for creating this thread and to @Scott worker and @JP for writing the script and making it available. I've read through this thread and have learned a lot from it.

I have a large collection of vintage and some new cartridges, and I am in the process of taking measurements of them. I have the CBS Laboratories STR-130 Professional Test Record. I purchased it used, and I don't know how much wear it has. It does have some clicks and pops. My previous method of measuring carts was to record the spot frequency tracks, manually measure those in Adobe Audition, enter that information into a spreadsheet, and then generate a frequency response chart. Needless to say, that was a time-intensive task. This is much easier, and the frequency response results I've generated so far using the sweep mostly align with the results I got from the spot-frequency method.

One issue I have encountered with a few cartridges is wildly oscillating measurements in the 15 to 20 kHz region. See the chart below from a new Sumiko Pearl cartridge a friend loaned me.

View attachment 450465
What could be causing the rapid fluctuations in the measurements? The cartridge seems unlikely to have such rapid variation in frequency response, although I suppose it's possible. Could it be from damage to the test record? If so, why do I see it with only some carts? Could it be the result of user error or poor setup? Is this a known issue with the STR-130? (I have a Denon XG-7001 Technical Test Record on the way that was listed on Discogs as in NM condition, so I'll take new measurements when I receive that.)

Setting aside the issues above 15 kHz, these measurements confirm my subjective impression of the cartridge as dark-sounding. The frequency response starts to drop off around 2 kHz and is down about 3 dB at 10 kHz. Raising the capacitance and resistance can alleviate this to some degree.

Equipment as follows:
Technics SL-1200 Mk.2 turntable/tonearm with KAB damper
Darlington Labs MM6B phono preamp
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 Gen. 3 ADC
CBS Laboraties STR-130
Sumiko Pearl cartridge with new, stock stylus

I'll be happy to post other results once I'm more confident I'm doing this right. In the meantime, any feedback on this issue would be appreciated. Other than this, my results look pretty standard.

Actually the FR result may be comparable to mine. It would be good to compare them at equal scale as it may clarify things about STR-130. It would be great if its FR matched STR-100 Issue 3.

Have any cartridges measured with the same album NOT exhibited this behavior?

What tracking force are you using?

If you send me the file I could check to see if there is an issue with where the sweep was cut just in case.


Also, importantly, record at 96k so that you get full 2H distortion results and the scale isn't thrown off. Your ADC should be able to handle it. You'd need to set up on both your OS and recording program.

 

[wpbilderback]

Have any cartridges measured with the same album NOT exhibited this behavior?

Yes, some of them do not exhibit this behavior. Shure V15 MR with Jico SAS boron, Stanton 680 and Pickering XV-15 all look pretty normal. Signet TK2EP shows a similar behavior but in the right, not left channel.

 

[wpbilderback]

Actually the FR result may be comparable to mine. It would be good to compare them at equal scale as it may clarify things about STR-130. It would be great if its FR matched STR-100 Issue 3.

View attachment 450479



What tracking force are you using?

If you send me the file I could check to see if there is an issue with where the sweep was cut just in case.


Also, importantly, record at 96k so that you get full 2H distortion results and the scale isn't thrown off. Your ADC should be able to handle it. You'd need to set up on both your OS and recording program.

VTF was 1.75 g, around the middle of Sumiko's recommended range. I recorded at 44.1k. I'll try again at 96k. I didn't realize that would throw the distortion measurements off. If the problem persists, I'll send you the file. Thanks.

 

[USER]

VTF was 1.75 g, around the middle of Sumiko's recommended range. I recorded at 44.1k. I'll try again at 96k. I didn't realize that would throw the distortion measurements off. If the problem persists, I'll send you the file. Thanks.

It might be best if you set it to 2g so that we can do a more apples to apples comparison with my own measurements. The cartridge may need the extra tracking force as the highs may be affected by it being too low for use on your tonearm.

Also, much love to Little Rhody. I ate some really good food there throughout grad school. The people there are my kind of weirdos.

 

[DVinylfan]

The thread would be better named

Introducing the References to Phono Cartridge Library​

The bulk of 'Spoiler' buttons is tiresome and unnecessary.
I clicked on the 'Denon DL-103' button, a cartridge I've used a great deal, and learned nothing helpful from finding a single out of context measurement.
Those caveats aside, thanks to the thread starters for what was obviously a great deal of work and I'm sure, useful to many.