Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

[USER]

Balle Clorin said:
I begin to wonder if CA TRS-1007 has less level in the right channel and also drops off earlier/more in the right(red ) channel. A large portion of my own curves and others seem to repeat the pattern above…


Not really music but Denon XG-7005 Pink Noise, basically the same above 5kHz as CA TRS-1007...
View attachment 370592

I've seen similar differences across different records. Don't know which is more correct, however.

 

[Jimi Floyd]

Shure V15 Type III MR

• Turntable: Thorens TD124, arm: SME 3009 series 2 improved (fixed headshell)
• Tracking force: 1.05g
• Stylus VN35MR has currently 128 playing hours on it
• Cartridge is from 1976, stylus is from 2000
• Phono stage: Pro-Ject Phono Box RS2
  • 100 pF / 47kΩ on phono stage, thus 250pF total capacitance, including cables
  • other graphs with 200pF, 300pF, 350pF total capacitance available
• Cable capacitance: 150pF (arm included)
  • Measured by user Barry at The Art of Sound
• ADC: MiniDsp SHD connected with USB to computer (Mac)
• Test record: CA TRS-1007 #2 Side B, tracks 1 & 2. This was the 2nd measurement using this side of this record
• Note: the blue crosstalk dip at 6-9 kHz is not there in a measurement I did using side A of the same record

The cartridge:

Azimuth setting method, using an L-shaped piece of paper.....

This is the first measurement I am posting in this thread. Please be kind. My deepest thanks go to the script author Scott Wurcer, to @JP and @USER for starting the two threads which taught me how to use it making my dream of measuring my cartridges' frequency response come true.

 

[USER]

Shure V15 Type III MR

View attachment 372529

• Turntable: Thorens TD124, arm: SME 3009 series 2 improved (fixed headshell)
• Tracking force: 1.05g
• Stylus VN35MR has currently 128 playing hours on it
• Cartridge is from 1976, stylus is from 2000
• Phono stage: Pro-Ject Phono Box RS2
  • 100 pF / 47kΩ on phono stage, thus 250pF total capacitance, including cables
  • other graphs with 200pF, 300pF, 350pF total capacitance available
• Cable capacitance: 150pF (arm included)
  • Measured by user Barry at The Art of Sound
• ADC: MiniDsp SHD connected with USB to computer (Mac)
• Test record: CA TRS-1007 #2 Side B, tracks 1 & 2. This was the 2nd measurement using this side of this record.

The cartridge:
View attachment 372531

Azimuth setting method, using an L-shaped piece of paper.....
View attachment 372532

This is the first measurement I am posting in this thread. Please be kind. My deepest thanks go to the script author Scott Wurcer, to @JP and @USER for starting the two threads which taught me to use it making my dream of measuring my cartridges' frequency response come true.

Well done!! Great cartridge.

 

[dagfinn]

Audio Technica 150mlx stylus- Metal body mount vs plastic (distortion experiment)

MLX stylus-150mlx body vs 150ea body (both metal)
View attachment 330788
MLX stylus- 150mlx body vs signet am50 body (metal vs plastic mount)
View attachment 330789
-these are all left channel readings of my newest 150mlx stylus
-all of these were recorded using a technics sl-q2 with an art djpre on the 0pf setting
-the first graph is a 150mlx vs 150ea body. both have heavy metal mounting caps. the 150ea has lower inductance and resistance than the mlx body. the high end rise is different with the lower inductance body having a greater rise. however, both bodies look to have roughly matching 2nd harmonic distortion.
-the second graph is the 150mlx body vs a signet am50 body. the signet has the lighter plastic mounting cap. in this case, the mlx has lower inductance and resistance compared to the signet body which leads to an expected difference in the high end rise. however, this time the distortion doesnt match. the plastic bodied signet shows lower 2nd harmonic distortion than the mlx using the same stylus.
-could the heavy metal mounting cap not be playing well with the technics arm and leading to higher distortion? id be open to any ideas or theories.

The Signet AM50 does not have a plastic mounting cap. It is all metal. Mounting bracket is smaller, and total weight is lower than 150MLx. Here's the AM40s next to the VM500 (which has plastic bracket).

 

[melloncolliecat]

Hey @dagfinn ! Good to see you here! Would be very interesting if you could share some measurements of your countless AT/Signet combos here.

 

[sofrep811]

I'm going to have to buy this AliExpress cartridge. Just to put in stock.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I'm going to have to buy this AliExpress cartridge. Just to put in stock.

What Are you talking about?

 

[red_delta]

I believe he is referring to this https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...tridge-measurement-library.46108/post-1757363

 

[mackat]

Anyone have a Goldring G 1042? I'm curious to see its measurements. May have to pick one up

 

[dlaloum]

The Signet AM50 does not have a plastic mounting cap. It is all metal. Mounting bracket is smaller, and total weight is lower than 150MLx. Here's the AM40s next to the VM500 (which has plastic bracket).
View attachment 373631

The signets are lovely - but ultimately the guts are the same as the AT VM equivalents.

However as a premium branch of the family, they are often better matched left to right, cherry picked from the production line I assume.

When fitting current, non-original needles, it can be useful to have several bodies from this family at different inductances (over the years, with the many models, there have been a variety of bodies with differing inductances) - you can use the body inductance as another loading adjustment variable.

The metal vs plastic mountings, change to total mass - which can also be handy in matching different stylus compliances to different arm masses....

And these families are sufficienty old, that you can often pick up examples for pennies!

 

[dagfinn]

Hey @dagfinn ! Good to see you here! Would be very interesting if you could share some measurements of your countless AT/Signet combos here.

Hello mr. @melloncolliecat. Don't recognize your nick, but thanks for the welcome . I helped do some measurements last year, which ended up in this https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ts-with-individual-transfer-functions.397815/

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/mm-paper-pdf.1161286/

. It originated in the same discussion as this thread, here.

Cartridge dynamic behaviour

I've started this thread to explore some issues that came up on another thread recently that were starting to drag that thread in the wrong direction. Hopefully I'll get time to pull in stuff on some other discussions here, but the drive here is to discuss things that would cause non-linear...

www.diyaudio.com

As I'm not an engineer and didn't write the paper, please understand I can't argue too much about the theoretics here.

I still have quite a bit of data from the project not yet fully analyzed, so perhaps there is something more. As you see in the paper, we used a 200-30kHz pink noise track, which may compliment the measurements published here. Great job, btw, very interesting to read!

 

[dagfinn]

The signets are lovely - but ultimately the guts are the same as the AT VM equivalents.

However as a premium branch of the family, they are often better matched left to right, cherry picked from the production line I assume.

When fitting current, non-original needles, it can be useful to have several bodies from this family at different inductances (over the years, with the many models, there have been a variety of bodies with differing inductances) - you can use the body inductance as another loading adjustment variable.

The metal vs plastic mountings, change to total mass - which can also be handy in matching different stylus compliances to different arm masses....

And these families are sufficienty old, that you can often pick up examples for pennies!

True, and I agree . That MLx is not so cheap anymore, though...

 

[morillon]

became “gold in bars” ;-)

 

[melloncolliecat]

Hello mr. @melloncolliecat. Don't recognize your nick, but thanks for the welcome . I helped do some measurements last year, which ended up in this https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ts-with-individual-transfer-functions.397815/

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/mm-paper-pdf.1161286/

. It originated in the same discussion as this thread, here.

Cartridge dynamic behaviour

I've started this thread to explore some issues that came up on another thread recently that were starting to drag that thread in the wrong direction. Hopefully I'll get time to pull in stuff on some other discussions here, but the drive here is to discuss things that would cause non-linear...

www.diyaudio.com

As I'm not an engineer and didn't write the paper, please understand I can't argue too much about the theoretics here.

I still have quite a bit of data from the project not yet fully analyzed, so perhaps there is something more. As you see in the paper, we used a 200-30kHz pink noise track, which may compliment the measurements published here. Great job, btw, very interesting to read!

I don't think we've spoken, I've just followed your AT and Technics postings with great interest.

Thanks for the links! Haven't seen that thread, will read up on it.

Saturday and starting to wake up now, though. Probably time to just play some R.O.C.K...

 

[dlaloum]

Hello mr. @melloncolliecat. Don't recognize your nick, but thanks for the welcome . I helped do some measurements last year, which ended up in this https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ts-with-individual-transfer-functions.397815/

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/mm-paper-pdf.1161286/

. It originated in the same discussion as this thread, here.

Cartridge dynamic behaviour

I've started this thread to explore some issues that came up on another thread recently that were starting to drag that thread in the wrong direction. Hopefully I'll get time to pull in stuff on some other discussions here, but the drive here is to discuss things that would cause non-linear...

www.diyaudio.com

As I'm not an engineer and didn't write the paper, please understand I can't argue too much about the theoretics here.

I still have quite a bit of data from the project not yet fully analyzed, so perhaps there is something more. As you see in the paper, we used a 200-30kHz pink noise track, which may compliment the measurements published here. Great job, btw, very interesting to read!

Thanks for that link - I haven't heard hide nor hair of LuckyDog since around 2015....

And we never did pin down some of those effects

 

[somebodyelse]

Anyone have a Goldring G 1042? I'm curious to see its measurements. May have to pick one up

I'm curious too. I have the closely related Roksan Corus body that's in need of a new stylus, and the Goldring is probably the only available option. The question is whether it's worth doing that or buying something else.

 

[dagfinn]

First @USER, I hope it's ok to post some measurements not following the formula. They are based on 30kHz pink noise, so a little different. They were made for this project, as mentioned.

Dividing MM Carts into electrical parts with individual Transfer Functions

In a joined effort, Bill, Dagfinn and I went into much detail by developing replacement diagrams for MM cartridges, divided into two parts, first the output section with coil, that we called the Generator, and second for the complete Cantilever assembly. An achievement never realized before to...

www.diyaudio.com

What I have is FFT's of 30 seconds pink noise snippets, corrected for 3dB/octave slope. These are done using a Denon DP-57L turntable, a Simaudio Moon 110 mkII phonostage, modified by Hans Polak to perfect flatness. Samples were recorded using a Motu M4. The Denon tonearm/interconnect measures to 98,5pF, (rounded to 100pF), and the Moon was set to 50pF/47kOhm. Resolution was 24/196.

So, what is not covered in the paper are some later samples I did using different inserts on the AT150Mlx generator, since I have a few different styli fitting the AT150. So differences we see is due to the cantilever and stylus assembly only. I have no conclusions or final analysis, I just started looking at the data.

This is the AT150MLx in original configuration, with goldplated boron cantilever and MicroLine stylus, fairly new, sub 50 hours. I think we recognize the profile from the many measurements already published here, except it's extended (as the source is the CH Precision setup disk. Note: it's a 7"/45", so sampled disk radius is about 8 cm ).

As comparison, this is the same AT150 with a beryllium/shibata insert, an unused Signet TKN7LCa. Quite a difference! I have a few more cantilevers, but this illustrates what's there. (If this is the wrong thread, maybe there's a different thread to post more, if there is interest?)

A beryllium/shibata pic, ATN155LC, virtually the same as TKN7LCa.

 

[board]

I noticed in the first post that people were asking for measurements of Hana cartridges, although specific ones.
If it's of any interest, I have tried out the Hana SH (high output) and did this frequency response "measurement" using the plugin CurveEQ.
As I mentioned in the other thread, "Fun with vinyl measurements" (I actually thought, mistakenly, I was then posting in this current thread), I don't have any measurement gear, so I can only figure out frequency response by using CurveEQ, which is not necessarily completely accurate.
The phono preamp I used here was the Parasound Zphono.

I only tried out the above Hana cartridge very briefly after seeing and hearing that top-end rise, which of course some people absolutely love.

In February 2016 Hi-Fi World tested out another Hana model, the Hana EL and EH, and they showed these measurements:

In each window there are two lines. The ones that are rolled off are of innner grooves.

 

[dlaloum]

First @USER, I hope it's ok to post some measurements not following the formula. They are based on 30kHz pink noise, so a little different. They were made for this project, as mentioned.

Dividing MM Carts into electrical parts with individual Transfer Functions

In a joined effort, Bill, Dagfinn and I went into much detail by developing replacement diagrams for MM cartridges, divided into two parts, first the output section with coil, that we called the Generator, and second for the complete Cantilever assembly. An achievement never realized before to...

www.diyaudio.com

What I have is FFT's of 30 seconds pink noise snippets, corrected for 3dB/octave slope. These are done using a Denon DP-57L turntable, a Simaudio Moon 110 mkII phonostage, modified by Hans Polak to perfect flatness. Samples were recorded using a Motu M4. The Denon tonearm/interconnect measures to 98,5pF, (rounded to 100pF), and the Moon was set to 50pF/47kOhm. Resolution was 24/196.

So, what is not covered in the paper are some later samples I did using different inserts on the AT150Mlx generator, since I have a few different styli fitting the AT150. So differences we see is due to the cantilever and stylus assembly only. I have no conclusions or final analysis, I just started looking at the data.

This is the AT150MLx in original configuration, with goldplated boron cantilever and MicroLine stylus, fairly new, sub 50 hours. I think we recognize the profile from the many measurements already published here, except it's extended (as the source is the CH Precision setup disk. Note: it's a 7"/45", so sampled disk radius is about 8 cm ).
View attachment 374295

As comparison, this is the same AT150 with a beryllium/shibata insert, an unused Signet TKN7LCa. Quite a difference! I have a few more cantilevers, but this illustrates what's there. (If this is the wrong thread, maybe there's a different thread to post more, if there is interest?)
View attachment 374301

A beryllium/shibata pic, ATN155LC, virtually the same as TKN7LCa.
View attachment 374303

Did you at any stage try deducting the calculated electrical response from the measured response, to extract the raw cantilever/needle behaviour?

LD had provided the calculations and spreadsheet to do this - but it assumed basic LCR and didn't include additional lower level non linearities (such as eddy currents)

The model I have (those spreadsheets) was therefore imperfect... but did achieve a decent level of predictability.

It also highlighted that the (a) major differentiator in FR was the cantilever and its resonance...

 

[JP]

The Denon tonearm/interconnect measures to 98,5pF, (rounded to 100pF), and the Moon was set to 50pF/47kOhm. Resolution was 24/196.

It looks like C is a bit higher than 150pF. What’s the measured input C of the Moon?