good clarification. the measurement is awesome and i appreciate everyone's efforts here. i definitely should have said the results!
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thomasjast
Active Member
New to this thread overall and there's a lot to absorb. Are there any slam-dunk recommendations here in terms of the overall flattest frequency response with the lowest distortion/crosstalk?
If it's relevant, turntable would be a Technics SL-1500CS which comes with an Ortofon Red out of the box.
If it's relevant, turntable would be a Technics SL-1500CS which comes with an Ortofon Red out of the box.
Jimi Floyd
Senior Member
Welcome to the thread. If you start at the Index it is easy to navigate.
Jimi Floyd
Senior Member
If you state a budget you will easily receive targeted suggestions.
Do you means something like this?
Not easy since Jicos ( SAS B )are not consistent… and this neeeded a 7 degree shim too, to get VTA down .But a definitely oppgrade would be to go from Ortofon Red to Blue
thomasjast
Active Member
Funny enough, this is ASR, I never correlate performance to cost these days. There’s no price I wouldn’t pay for “the best” but it would have to be the greatest performer in the world, so let’s say ~$500 instead.
500 usd is what the Shure V15-IV + Jico SASB cost me.
If you can change loading You cannot go wrong with an AT-VM745xML With the boron cantilever. The Shure V15 type IV or V ith SAS/B is no slouch and you get a damping brush. But that one needs VTA shimming 6-7 degrees.
I was just about to post the same comment wrt the AT cartridge.
thomasjast
Active Member
And what if you can't/won't change the loading on the AT cart? Mostly looking for a plug & play replacement upgrade. One thing I've noticed in many of these measurements is the L/R crosstalk graphs often being quite far off from each other. What would cause such a thing?
Different records have both different VTA and also deviations in Azimuth. Setting it perfectly for one record will not fit another.
Some test record are more off than others
I'm sure this is discussed at length somewhere, but I have not been able to find it. The goal of a shimming a cartridge is to change the VTA to meet some ideal? What are the shims? Can the same goal be reaching by raising or lowering the arm's rear?
Apologies for my ignorance.
Apologies for my ignorance.
Most records are cut with a VTA at 20 or less, old records even lower.
Some few manufacturers deliver cartridges with VTA 20-22 , many will not tell but deliver cartridges with VTA 25-30, some even more.
Some high end styli made by Ogura and Obray are made assuming a 20-22 degree VTA design. Using them in a 30VTA cartridge will deteriorate the performance.
Any deviation in VTA between record and cartridge will create distortion. But it may not be so critical if the angle deviation is moderate, and also the vertical movement of the cartridge is the stereo signal ( Left and right channel difference) which is NOT the largest part that we hear. VTA error add distortion to the stereo part.
But my experience and my measurements tell me that a more correct VTA improves tracking, gives less crosstalk and minimize distortion.
Adjustments to tonearm may give 1 degree VTA change while shims at headshell can give 8 degrees before cartridge hits the record by the tail.
Some few manufacturers deliver cartridges with VTA 20-22 , many will not tell but deliver cartridges with VTA 25-30, some even more.
Some high end styli made by Ogura and Obray are made assuming a 20-22 degree VTA design. Using them in a 30VTA cartridge will deteriorate the performance.
Any deviation in VTA between record and cartridge will create distortion. But it may not be so critical if the angle deviation is moderate, and also the vertical movement of the cartridge is the stereo signal ( Left and right channel difference) which is NOT the largest part that we hear. VTA error add distortion to the stereo part.
But my experience and my measurements tell me that a more correct VTA improves tracking, gives less crosstalk and minimize distortion.
Adjustments to tonearm may give 1 degree VTA change while shims at headshell can give 8 degrees before cartridge hits the record by the tail.
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Anyone have thoughts on the longevity/aging of the elastomers of Shure cartridges kept in a favorable environment?
When I found out Shure was discontinuing the V15 IV Micro Ridge replacement stylus back in 1997 (I think), I purchased two directly from Shure for the ridiculous price of $27 each. Both have relatively low hours.
When I found out Shure was discontinuing the V15 IV Micro Ridge replacement stylus back in 1997 (I think), I purchased two directly from Shure for the ridiculous price of $27 each. Both have relatively low hours.
Jimi Floyd
Senior Member
The same goal cannot be reached raising or lowering the arm's rear. By doing so, the max VTA change you can obtain is of the order of ±1°, corresponding to ±4mm at the arm's rear. with shims you can reach 8° or so if you wish.
DSJR
Master Contributor
My V15IV-HE still works as it did decades back (low hours and low use). Interesting comments re VTA on this model however - must do more research here 
The SL1500C comes with the raw but engaging 2M Red (fine on clean records but mine isn't tolerant of noisy ones, as per its OM10 ancestor). I recently bought a 2M Blue stylus for under £115 in the UK, which has a reputation for being fussy, but this sample went in a treat. My Dual 701 doesn't have VTA adjustment, so I checked alignment with the Dual carrier-gauge (null is 57mm or so from disc centre), re-set downforce and off I went (I have an added mat which will affect overall VTA a little). Not played it much, but it sounds great to me, cleaner up top (naked elliptical tip), quieter on surface noise effects and tracking/tracing seems fine as well. Much cheaper than the funky 2M Bronze, which I think or imagine (no direct comparison sadly) may be punchier than an equivalent AT VMx model.
A P.S as regards measured frequency response. My take is still that the response curve may give a general impression, but I still feel that this alone doesn't tell you everything about how a given pickup is going to be subjectively.
The SL1500C comes with the raw but engaging 2M Red (fine on clean records but mine isn't tolerant of noisy ones, as per its OM10 ancestor). I recently bought a 2M Blue stylus for under £115 in the UK, which has a reputation for being fussy, but this sample went in a treat. My Dual 701 doesn't have VTA adjustment, so I checked alignment with the Dual carrier-gauge (null is 57mm or so from disc centre), re-set downforce and off I went (I have an added mat which will affect overall VTA a little). Not played it much, but it sounds great to me, cleaner up top (naked elliptical tip), quieter on surface noise effects and tracking/tracing seems fine as well. Much cheaper than the funky 2M Bronze, which I think or imagine (no direct comparison sadly) may be punchier than an equivalent AT VMx model.
A P.S as regards measured frequency response. My take is still that the response curve may give a general impression, but I still feel that this alone doesn't tell you everything about how a given pickup is going to be subjectively.
And yet, if nothing is pathological, every time I EQ response to match, suddenly no one can tell the difference between two carts. It'd be great if this body of evidence were strengthened so we can navigate data rather than feelings.
DSJR
Master Contributor
It's all memories and subjective stuff with me on this. I mean, Shure M75-ED and Rega Elys. Admittedly the diamonds are different (Shure a crude naked elliptical and the Rega a rather nice bonded type), but the Shure sounds 'beefy' to my ears where the Rega is plain dull and soggy! The replacement ND3 is similarly sucked out up top but is reportedly and subjectively cleaner sounding and more 'seamless' in tone.
Having said the above, I do have to wonder if a proper eq of both the above would get them sounding the same? I'm nearly out of all this now and just hanging on by my fingernails, so never likely here I'm afraid.
It’s in the fun.. thread. Shims:
Fun with vinyl measurements
One idea: not sure if it is possible or not, but is there a way to have Chat GPT come up with an "auto-centering" mechanism based on the polar plot? I'm wondering if that would make more test records usable.
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