Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

[Thomas_A]

Artifacts of mistracking are often easier to find, at least in a concrete sense, with simple approaches. This is from the peak of the initial amplitude rise. No sign of mistracking in the fundamental. The crosstalk is a different story.

View attachment 515856

Which file?

 

[JP]

Which file?

One someone sent - I can't remember. Found it in my downloads folder: mp700_raw_60db.wav.

 

[sqrl]

That's a fair point. Here are the left outer TRS-1007 traces at 192 Hz, followed by the right inner, which should be worse.

Pre-peak

Peak

Right Inner

Pre-peak

Peak

Actually, where I did find something on cross-talk was at the release phenomenon at the dip post-peak :-

I amplified by 30 dB

This is a part of the sweep where the cross-talk is still down 25 dB to the fundamental - on the the post-peak red trace in the sweep below ...

... so at 55 dB below the fundamental there are more jagged peaks and troughs.

Where I then become confused is what actually is "mistracking". What the term suggests is that inevitably the stylus not following the groove accurately, possibly causing damage to the stylus or the grooves. Stylus/cantilever misalignment can be one cause, best treated by improving alignment. One sign of good alignment is low cross-talk.

However, cross-talk also results from electrical interference between channels, in the coils, tonearm wiring etc.

In the MP-700 case, it may also be a resonance phenomenon affecting the moving magnet interaction with the coils, at the cantilever-tie-wire connection. As the stylus-cantilever/magnet-tie-wire assembly frequency approaches the tie-wire's resonant frequency range, tie-wire resonance transfers energy back into the cantilever/magnet and generates spurious signal in both the fundamental and the unmodulated channel. This energy transfer amplifies the coil output and causes a peak in frequency response and cross-talk in the "captured" frequency range. The stylus then drives the cantilever out of the resonant frequency range and there is a "catch-up" where the cantilever/magnet-tie-wire resonance hunts from the tie-wire resonance frequency to the stylus-generated frequency, with a sudden drop in output at the fundamental frequency, until the cantilever is reentrained by the stylus. Cross-talk peaks and dips actually slightly follow the output peaks and dips, during the above transitions. Maybe this is spurious signal during hunting between frequencies, at a guess. It perhaps also makes it more likely to be an electromagnetic phenomenon, as a stylus interaction with the grooves (non-grooves in the unmodulated channel) might be anticipated to generate peaks and falls in cross-talk in lock-step with output.

Alignment, resonance and electromagnetic phenomena may all play a role in crosstalk, which cannot simply be reduced only to inaccurate tracking of vinyl grooves. I am not convinced that a breakdown in crosstalk at the fundamental frequency always represents physical mistracking, especially since it's a break up of a signal that shouldn't even be there in the first place. You have to consider the possibilities why it is there and what might affect it. Then think of experiments.

 

[JP]

Not reading a wall of text, but it seems you’ve missed the point entirely.

 

[narud]

Technics EPC205CMKIV stylus on MKIII body

1.17 grams

1.25 grams

I picked up an integrated headshell version of the mkiv in pieces with what was being advertised as a good stylus with no sag. its sags. the diamond looks absolutely unplayed though under the scope. looking at it play a record at 1.25 grams made my teeth itch, so i backed off to 1.17 which made a noticeable difference in how much it drooped so its super reactive to small changes. it did ok on the hifi news test tracks but it didnt pass all bands of the tracking tests on the shure era v record like it was reported to do in the old Audio mag review. im guessing the suspension is the cause, but none of the other 2x7 elliptical carts ive had do much better if at all on levels 4,5,and 6 of the shure record. new micro ridge carts or old vn5mr's do the best.

the droop looks like it was there in the old measurements from back in the day

im wondering if the lift at the end is from the small inductance difference in the mkiii body. the in pieces mkiv measures slightly higher. id love to get this mkiv back together, but the wire colors are throwing me and the wires dont look like they were ever soldered. if anyone has ever had one of these apart, id love some insight!

 

[USER]

That's a fair point. Here are the left outer TRS-1007 traces at 192 Hz, followed by the right inner, which should be worse.

Pre-peak

View attachment 515932View attachment 515933View attachment 515934

Peak

View attachment 515935View attachment 515936View attachment 515937

Right Inner

Pre-peak

View attachment 515945View attachment 515946View attachment 515947


Peak

View attachment 515949View attachment 515950View attachment 515951

Actually, where I did find something on cross-talk was at the release phenomenon at the dip post-peak :-

View attachment 515958View attachment 515959View attachment 515960

I amplified by 30 dB

View attachment 515961View attachment 515962

This is a part of the sweep where the cross-talk is still down 25 dB to the fundamental - on the the post-peak red trace in the sweep below ...

View attachment 515963
... so at 55 dB below the fundamental there are more jagged peaks and troughs.

Where I then become confused is what actually is "mistracking". What the term suggests is that inevitably the stylus not following the groove accurately, possibly causing damage to the stylus or the grooves. Stylus/cantilever misalignment can be one cause, best treated by improving alignment. One sign of good alignment is low cross-talk.

However, cross-talk also results from electrical interference between channels, in the coils, tonearm wiring etc.

In the MP-700 case, it may also be a resonance phenomenon affecting the moving magnet interaction with the coils, at the cantilever-tie-wire connection. As the stylus-cantilever/magnet-tie-wire assembly frequency approaches the tie-wire's resonant frequency range, tie-wire resonance transfers energy back into the cantilever/magnet and generates spurious signal in both the fundamental and the unmodulated channel. This energy transfer amplifies the coil output and causes a peak in frequency response and cross-talk in the "captured" frequency range. The stylus then drives the cantilever out of the resonant frequency range and there is a "catch-up" where the cantilever/magnet-tie-wire resonance hunts from the tie-wire resonance frequency to the stylus-generated frequency, with a sudden drop in output at the fundamental frequency, until the cantilever is reentrained by the stylus. Cross-talk peaks and dips actually slightly follow the output peaks and dips, during the above transitions. Maybe this is spurious signal during hunting between frequencies, at a guess. It perhaps also makes it more likely to be an electromagnetic phenomenon, as a stylus interaction with the grooves (non-grooves in the unmodulated channel) might be anticipated to generate peaks and falls in cross-talk in lock-step with output.

Alignment, resonance and electromagnetic phenomena may all play a role in crosstalk, which cannot simply be reduced only to inaccurate tracking of vinyl grooves. I am not convinced that a breakdown in crosstalk at the fundamental frequency always represents physical mistracking, especially since it's a break up of a signal that shouldn't even be there in the first place. You have to consider the possibilities why it is there and what might affect it. Then think of experiments.

I'm going to delete this response so as to not clutter this thread, but would you be able to do us a quick favor and put the images within spoiler so the post doesn't take up so much real estate?

Also, if the discussion is going to go beyond the cartridge itself at some point I'd also appreciate it if it was moved to the fun with measurements or another better suited thread. If it is still about the cartridge then no worries. I am glad to see the cartridge create so much discussion.

Thanks everyone.

 

[acd]

Stanton 681EEE II s

Comments

I bought the cartridge last fall (fall 2025) after years of usage by the original owner who bought it years back. He changed the stylus once. As the pictures show, it is in excellent condition which is, in my opinion, confirmed by the measurements even though it doesn't reach the 35dB cross-talk figure of the spec sheet.

Equipment information

Measured
PU: Stanton 681EEE II s
VTF: 2.5g (Effective 1.5g due to brush)
Anti-skate force: ~1.5 Korf scale

Interconnects used: Blue Jeans MSA 1 (2FT) = 92.8 pF (measured (Peak Atlas LCR40))
Cabling (to RIAA): Korf TA-SF9R + MSA 1: 110.8 pF (~110 pF) (measured (Peak Atlas LCR40) with headshell and headshell wires but without cartridge mounted)
Software Used: Audacity 3.7.7. Data exported to WAV @ 24 Bit/ 96k samples/sec

Tonearm: Korf TA-SF9R series II
Turntable: Technics SL-1300G
RIAA: MolaMola Lupe
AD Converter: Benchmark ADC1

Mola Mola Lupe Settings:
Load: 47k
Capacitance: 0pF
Subsonic filter: On
Mode: STEREO
Gain: 50 dB

Record information
Record: clearaudio CA-TRS-1007 (My copy #2)
Track: Side B tracks 1 & 2

Note on the "brush":
First of all, it cleans the record (just kidding). The cross-talk figures become about 5dB worse when I don't use it. I am yet to finish a cross-talk "analysis" I am working on which I will post when I understand the issue properly.

 

[Balle Clorin]

STANTON 680 with original 680SL( stereohederon disco version)

• Test record , well used CA TRS-1007
• 
  
• Fisher 6330 , Cambridge RIAA CP2 , 47k & 345pF
• No Azimuth adjustment, Stephenson alignment (sort of)
• Channel matching is good
• Updated with 96k file and -6degree VTA,
• This came with my ebay purcashe of a 680

Can the damper cause this top end drop, any suggestions how to rejuvinate it?

TRACKING
TRACKING 2.5G 60 UM OK, SLIGHT BUZZ AT 70UM
3.0 GRAM DOES NOT TRACK 70
3.5G TRACK 80

Spoiler: photos 680L, worn out?

Offcenter moving iron?

 

[aaaakkkk]

Denon DL-303 - tracking force 1.2g

 

[Piotr Seb]

Audiotechnica PTG 33 mk2 on Technics SL 1300 mk2 load 100 Om

 

[Balle Clorin]

Record? Unusually poor cross talk?

 

[aaaakkkk]

STANTON 680 with original 680SL( stereohederon disco version)

Can the damper cause this top end drop, any suggestions how to rejuvinate it?

If you have a microscope to monitor the process, you can try pulling the cantilever forward from the damper (a little bit), this usually helps.

 

[Jimi Floyd]

Can the damper cause this top end drop, any suggestions how to rejuvinate it?

1) maybe
2) instructions for the rejuvenation:
You need the stylus to be removed and the cantilever pointing up.
Get a toothpick or similar and wet it with power steering oil leak stop.

Place a tiny drop onto the suspension.
Make sure the stylus is sitting correctly and the suspension is sitting correctly, then leave it over night.
Next get a very thin thread to wick out the excess oil, maybe cut a thin piece of tissue and roll it up.
Next make sure there is no oil on the stylus or any on the plastic holder and the rubber should be good as new.

I learnt the trick long time ago and while no miracle is possible it really helps a lot quite often.

 

[mackat]

Denon DL-103D

I bought this one as unused from Japan a few weeks ago:

Very nice frequency response and close channel matching!

I am getting quite the 60 Hz hum when the volume is turned up. This phono stage is normally pretty good when it comes to that, so I'm not sure why.

The hum varies a bit when starting and stopping the 1200GR’s platter, which most cartridges seem immune to. Position of the tonearm does not matter.

This was simple user error. I mistakenly switched the left and right headshell ground leads. No more hum to speak of!

 

[Piotr Seb]

Autotechnica OC9

mk3

 

[mackat]

Denon DL-60

I purchased this cartridge from Japan sometime last year. Stylus should have little to no use.

To me, these are pretty impressive results from such an inexpensive cartridge!

I'm tempted to see how a Jico SAS/B would fare on it.

 

[Danish ear]

Technics EPC205L C IIX.
L = 49 & 51mH, R = 32 ohm. Hours unknown.

• Yamaha GT750
• TF 1.5 G
• Kenwood basic C2
  • 20pF, 48K
• Cable 120pF
• ADC Zoom TAC2R
• Record CA TRS 1007, Track 1&2

 

[Thomas_A]

Denon DL-60

I purchased this cartridge from Japan sometime last year. Stylus should have little to no use.

To me, these are pretty impressive results from such an inexpensive cartridge!

I'm tempted to see how a Jico SAS/B would fare on it.

View attachment 517534View attachment 517533

Think a bit higher C could do it

 

[mackat]

Think a bit higher C could do it

 

[mackat]

Interesting results on this 1979-made Shure V15 Type III I got recently. Only one I have with the longer metal body. This is paired with a VN35MR stylus.

This is my third. I have one made in 1973, which has the mirrored front and a channel imbalance.

I also have one made in 1974, which has the textured front. It has less rolloff than the 1979 unit, but does not hold styli securely.