Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

[Balle Clorin]

ive been really disappointed in my nagaoka experience. my mp-500 with two different stylus assemblies demonstrated an odd smearing/distortion of hot sibilants. the same thing happened with an mp-30. out of curiosity, i bought an mp-100 and it didnt have that symptom. on the stairsteps (group that did ooh child in the early 70's) album 2nd resurrection, the second side opens up with a drum beat and the high hats sound awful on the boron cantilevered nags. here a clip showing the problem. its 5 carts. the first 3 are a v15vmr, at ml-170 and an at 45xml stylus on a 510x body. the 4th is an mp500 and the last is the mp30.

hi hat comparison 2.wav

drive.google.com

no amount of set up or tweaking could get rid of it. in general, the mp-500 didnt do as well on sibilants as my other carts, but not as glaringly bad as this particular cut. i tried that track with my other carts that have cheaper bonded styli like an m97xe or old 80's pfanstiehs and it was only the nags that made the hats sound that bad. im surprised i dont hear more reports of issues.

There are only 4 samples about 16 seconds each.in a 62second track. not the 5 you mention???
The third sample sound very different.

 

[narud]

There are only 4 samples about 16 seconds each.in a 62second track. not the 5 you mention???
The third sample sound very different.

i recorded this a while ago and thought i remembered going through 4 of my tables that are set up. its actually only 3 of them. the first one is an sl1200 with the 45xml, second clip is the 1600mk2 with v15vmr, the 3rd and 4th are the same table. kenwood kd500 with a sme 3009 series ii non improved. 3 is the low hours mp500 stylus and the last is the mp30. the 630 hour mp500 stylus sounded closer to the mp30 stylus. all 3 of those boron nags made closed hi hats sound more like slightly open hats.

 

[eliash]

My biggest issue with Nagaoka carts is the random, sharp static ticks that seemingly appear out of nowhere (and can be very uncomfortable when listening on headphones).

One of the claims about the MP-700: "The shielded case and cartridge frame are made from ultra-duralumin (a copper-aluminium alloy), which is further treated with a triple layer of nickel plating, black tin plating and an insulating coating – all of which aims to protect it against static interference, heat, wear and tear, and ensure the exterior’s longevity."

This has proven false, in my case. I have noticed obvious static ticks in my short time listening to the MP-700.

Seemingly no different to my MP-500, first MP-200, or the MP-200 I picked up used recently.

This seems to be a problem very specific to Nagaoka, and I don't understand how a high-end company that has the engineering capability to produce well-measuring cartridges (MP-500) hasn't found a solution to it yet.

Unfortunately Nagaoka decided to tie the metal body to the ground pin of the right channel (at least true for MP-500, similar as Shure V15 IV - but they had a bridge which could be removed). In case operating the tonearm at a different (or no ground) than the cart case, strange things can happen, even arcing through the insulating laquer of the body or changing isolation resistances.
Due to this shortcoming, I had to insulate my metal tonearm lever with heat shrinking tube to avoid electrostatic ticks when touching it (I grounded the tonearm to the the cart's right ground pin to avoid plastic screws and insulation layers...
(fortunately the SME15 turntable has 3 ground layers to be connected separately: base layer to mains ground, floating chassis to amp case ground and tonearm+cart to internal T+A preamp ground, which yields a mains hum pickup level of around-100dB)

 

[Thomas_A]

i recorded this a while ago and thought i remembered going through 4 of my tables that are set up. its actually only 3 of them. the first one is an sl1200 with the 45xml, second clip is the 1600mk2 with v15vmr, the 3rd and 4th are the same table. kenwood kd500 with a sme 3009 series ii non improved. 3 is the low hours mp500 stylus and the last is the mp30. the 630 hour mp500 stylus sounded closer to the mp30 stylus. all 3 of those boron nags made closed hi hats sound more like slightly open hats.

All loaded for linear response at the highs? I can hear a distorted sound of the MP500. VTA issue? MP500 is known to be high. Try shim it at the back, between head shell and cart.

 

[Balle Clorin]

cannot see any clipping in the signal..but I see this...long central 6db lift in MP-500 - not present in other tracks, almost as when clicks occur, maybe mistracking?, but normally Nagaoke track well from the objective reviews I have seen. Possibly a specimen quirk?

even more pronounced in the first drum hit..

 

[Balle Clorin]

Files will not play on IPhone?

 

[eliash]

Nagaoka MP-700

This is certainly a strange one:

View attachment 512043
Here is a measurement of the MP-500 stylus on the MP-700 body:

View attachment 512044
Very similar to the MP-500 body, so the issue seems to be with the MP-700 cantilever assembly.

Regarding electrical characteristics, I add cart coil measurements for MP-500 and MP-700:

Pretty similar, but magnetic field strength could differ, since the MP-700 outputs some 2dB more.

L: inductance, R: resistance, r: right chan, l: left chan

MP-700
R r: 595Ohm
L r: 780mH
R l: 620Ohm
L l: 810mH

Body connected to R-(green)?


MP-500
R r: 590Ohm
L r: 790mH
R l: 605Ohm
L l: 830mH

Body connected to R-(green)!

Btw. Both styli exibit similar Barkhausen effect noise (magnetic zone flipping in the permalloy) when lowering the stylus into the groove, but still acceptable level from my pov.

 

[narud]

All loaded for linear response at the highs? I can hear a distorted sound of the MP500. VTA issue? MP500 is known to be high. Try shim it at the back, between head shell and cart.

all manners of parameter tweaks were attempted for an embarrassingly long time with no improvement. at one point, i was trying to make changes too quickly and pulled up the 3009 too quickly while adjusting vta and ripped the tonearm wires from the connector. i tried it with different phono pres as well with no improvement. i eventually had to come to the realization that i have a neutral cart which doesnt require special loading (v15vmr) with multiple stylus samples left that will probably last me my listening life. i then decided nagaoka can go kick rocks.

 

[narud]

cannot see any clipping in the signal..but I see this...long central 6db lift in MP-500 - not present in other tracks, almost as when clicks occur, maybe mistracking?, but normally Nagaoke track well from the objective reviews I have seen. Possibly a specimen quirk?
View attachment 512305

even more pronounced in the first drum hit..
View attachment 512311

the newish mp500 was by far the worst offender in all of my trials, but that open hi hat shh sound is there on the mp30 as well. albeit to a lesser degree. ill try and find the 630 hour stylus recording i made which has a sound closer to the mp30 than the carts that sound correct. the bottom of the barrel mp100 tracked the hi hats no problem and sounded like closed hi hats when they were supposed to.

 

[narud]

Files will not play on IPhone?

hmm. its just a wav file saved from audacity.

 

[USER]

I think I'm having the same issue.

mp700 aaaaa | essence

essence.gg

Tried making a comparison highlighting the issue. Only post processing done in Audacity is time alignment + normalization.

Spoiler: results

track a is oc9xml and b is mp700

Where is the issue on these files? I'm not sure I hear the static. All I hear on both is what I think is sibilance most likely caused by record wear at around 8 seconds. It does sound a little worse on the MP700 to me.

Here's a comparison. Interesting but not so useful as is because the biggest differences are above 50kHz. They are similar in a more appropriate sample rate comparison with the difference being mainly the the resonance of the MP700.

Here's a spectrogram comparison when resampled to 44.1 so we get a better view. More "heat" (amplitude) in the lower frequencies (edit: not "lower" but in the important frequencies between 1-10kHz) on the MP700. I checked to see if they were pops but most weren't. You can see the most offensive silibance in the middle at around 8 seconds.

But yeah, I'll take the Audio-Technica every day of the week. Very disappointing stuff from Nagaoka. Is it too late for a return? There is more than enough cause for one.

 

[Balle Clorin]

@acd may bring some clarity here, he tested the MP-500 and mentioned to me that set up was a challenge and critical.
Post in thread 'Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library'
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tridge-measurement-library.46108/post-2362012

 

[JP]

Where is the issue on these files? I'm not sure I hear the static. All I hear on both is what I think is sibilance most likely caused by record wear at around 8 seconds. It does sound a little worse on the MP700 to me.

Sounds like "b" is mistracking on the sibilants. Could be from record damage if the styli are tracing different parts of the groove. Don't know.

 

[Thomas_A]

Second one is distorted on sibilants. It may be poor tracking at HF or zenith error. That no conclusive data yet but it may be a correlation.

 

[Balle Clorin]

sound like a dustbowl or scratch at 7.7 seconds on B, cleaning and more VTF does not help?

 

[essence]

Where is the issue on these files? I'm not sure I hear the static. All I hear on both is what I think is sibilance most likely caused by record wear at around 8 seconds. It does sound a little worse on the MP700 to me.

But yeah, I'll take the Audio-Technica every day of the week. Very disappointing stuff from Nagaoka. Is it too late for a return? There is more than enough cause for one.

Thanks for the breakdown. The record is brand new/mint, and from inspection I don't see any glaring issues. In the process of a return, I don't mind everything else but the silibance issue is the deal breaker for me. I've tried 1.3/1.7 vtf with similar results. My distrobuter has contacted Nagaoka and awaiting their reply.

 

[narud]

I think I'm having the same issue.

mp700 aaaaa | essence

essence.gg

Tried making a comparison highlighting the issue. Only post processing done in Audacity is time alignment + normalization.

Spoiler: results

track a is oc9xml and b is mp700

this sounds like the type of performance i was getting from the mp-500 with both styli and the mp-30 (somewhat expected with a .4x.7 elliptical) on hot sibilants. i dont experience this type of poor performance from other micro ridge or shibata equipped carts i have. i searched for posts across the web to see if anyone else had issues with the premium nagaoka carts and i only stumbled upon one person on facebook. are people only playing tame albums or are we just the really unlucky ones?

 

[Dr.Deadwax]

this sounds like the type of performance i was getting from the mp-500 with both styli and the mp-30 (somewhat expected with a .4x.7 elliptical) on hot sibilants. i dont experience this type of poor performance from other micro ridge or shibata equipped carts i have. i searched for posts across the web to see if anyone else had issues with the premium nagaoka carts and i only stumbled upon one person on facebook. are people only playing tame albums or are we just the really unlucky ones?

The problem is that most people don't have high expectations for vinyl listening. They see it as a retro medium, and it's okay if it hisses and distorts, otherwise, it wouldn't be vinyl but a CD. I mean, how many people listen with an Ortofon 2M or a Denon DL-103 that distort a lot.

 

[Thomas_A]

I think I'm having the same issue.

mp700 aaaaa | essence

essence.gg

Tried making a comparison highlighting the issue. Only post processing done in Audacity is time alignment + normalization.

Spoiler: results

track a is oc9xml and b is mp700

I checked the files by converting the files to mono. Both files about the same in the highs in mono. So there is an out-of-phase distortion component in track b that sounds nasty, so you have tracing distortion; the stylus are going wild in vertical direction. Most likely the stylus has wrong fit into the groove like suboptimal VTA/SRA/zenith.

 

[JP]

Most likely the stylus has wrong fit into the groove like suboptimal VTA/SRA/zenith.

Based on? I've played a fair number of line-types with those parameters all over the board, though not pathologically, where mistracking never occurred.