Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

[JP]

It makes more sense

I prefer more C on that cart to split the difference down the middle to ~14kHz. Mid range dips circa 5kHz of more than a dB is usually pretty apparent to me.

 

[ElectricWarrior]

Yeah, they sure can use quite a bit more capacitance than AT recommends.
I still have quite a bit of high end roll off—guess my SRA may be off, too. It doesn't look that good in the pics, but then again the pics I can take of the stylus on a moving record are quite blurry..

 

[skudra]

Pioneer PC-550E/II
Click to increase size
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Notes

• Very lightly used, bonded, elliptical stylus with titanium cantilever
• At the time, late 1970s, Pioneer's third best model
  • You find cantilevers made from interesting materials during this time
  • Best was PC-1000/II with beryllium cantilever
• Excellent crosstalk, excellent channel balance, and very good distortion until about 10kHz
  • That distortion isn't related to wear
• We can begin to see what to expect out of a good cartridge from the late 1970s
  • And can have a good basis with which to judge modern cartridges

You can see the pretty severe “zenith” error in the first photo.

 

[USER]

You can see the pretty severe “zenith” error in the first photo.

Can you explain? I'm not seeing anything that's off. Crosstalk looks good, distortion looks right for the time and commensurate with the condition, and the FR also looks above average for the time with a well controlled resonance and essentially splitting the difference between the PC-200 and PC-1000 posted here, which makes sense. I'd love to know if I am missing something. Do you have other measurements?

If you are referring to the stylus pictures, I am not sure if there is enough evidence of it. Could be the angle and the measurements seem good. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

[skudra]

Can you explain? I'm not seeing anything that's off. Crosstalk looks good, distortion looks right for the time and commensurate with the condition, and the FR also looks above average for the time with a well controlled resonance and essentially splitting the difference between the PC-200 and PC-1000 posted here, which makes sense. I'd love to know if I am missing something. Do you have other measurements?

It’s just this photo. It looks to me like the stylus is attached kind of counter-clockwise. I don’t see anything in the measurements that would indicate that, but you rarely see anything in measurement numbers. Certainly not a rarity even with high-priced cartridges. Unless my eyes are deceiving me, which is a possibility.

 

[narud]

Can you explain? I'm not seeing anything that's off. Crosstalk looks good, distortion looks right for the time and commensurate with the condition, and the FR also looks above average for the time with a well controlled resonance and essentially splitting the difference between the PC-200 and PC-1000 posted here, which makes sense. I'd love to know if I am missing something. Do you have other measurements?

If you are referring to the stylus pictures, I am not sure if there is enough evidence of it. Could be the angle and the measurements seem good. But maybe I'm wrong.

looking at the tracing edges, i guess it looks maybe a little rotated clockwise. could be lighting though. if someone thinks that amount is severe, boy ive got some nude black diamond stylus pics for you.

 

[JP]

It's just where the light is hitting it. Putting a line through the contact flares it looks pretty close.

 

[USER]

Likely that. It's a rag-tag set up. I am using a variety of light sources including gooseneck lamps that are not aligned. Then some tissues to soften the light and create a sort of light box. I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[narud]

heres blackened from first pressing lp and cd of metallicas and justice for all. im using a vn5mr that has probably a few hundred hours on it. the small .5 db saddle between 5 and 10k is there in the track comparison. if this measured with a 1db dip in the highs on the str100 in order to match the clearaudio record, the lp would be even more off from the cd. im just assuming these have the same master since they are so close and were released on their respective formats at the same time. megadeth's rust in peace is another lp/cd combo that will match.
View attachment 494957View attachment 494958

out of curiosity, i threw @JP's measurements of the vm45xml using the jvc record and the graph using the cbs record with difference c values into chatgpt and had it compare the jvc to the cbs orange trace of 47k 105pf. obviously this would be more accurate with the actual data values rather than it visually analyzing the graphs but this is what it came up with.

it seems like the cbs isnt as far off from the jvc as it is from the clearaudio record. is flat on the clearaudio record actually a .5db or so hot in the highs in some spots?

 

[USER]

Stanton 681EEE (NOS)

I recently picked up a new-old-stock (NOS) Stanton 681EEE cartridge.
View attachment 496031The 681EEE was marketed as the "calibration standard," and each cart came with a calibration sheet filled out by a Stanton tech before leaving the factory. As you can see from the chart above, sadly, the cartridge/stylus combo no longer meets this specification. I suspect this is due to the age of the stylus and possible hardening of the suspension.

Hmm. Your copy seems droopier than it is supposed to be. You can compare your results to mine on page 1 for more info.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Skip to the index. After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script, SJPlot, written by the legendary @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be...

www.audiosciencereview.com

As you note there may be a suspension issue as the dip is especially bad. And to double check, are you using the brush and adjusting properly for it? Your measurements must include that information as it is pertinent and necessary for others to be able to understand them. Too much or too little VTF can have an effect. If I recall correctly VTF should be at around 1g without the brush. As far as calibration notes go, without knowing how they calibrated it (test record) that information is not really helpful. You need to be able to do an apples to apples comparison. Back then test record FR wasn't as well understood as it is now.

As far as the droop goes more generally, as I note on my post, it was always there. I included this professional Stereo Review measurement from 1975. My measurements more or less match it. I set VTF to 2.25g and used the brush.

Also note that back then speakers often had boosted high frequencies. This cartridge would have helped make things more neutral.

 

[USER]

The test was without the brush. I know to add 1 gram per Stanton's recommendation if using it. I'm sorry if posting the original calibration notes was unhelpful. I was posting them mostly just for fun, not as a strictly scientific experiment. I thought people might be interested to see them. Mea culpa.

It's good to include them as they can spark good discussion, but I just wanted to avoid confusion and misinformation, especially given the results and conclusions presented. You should try using the brush to see if the results change. Perhaps also 1.5g is a wee bit too much for it brushless despite being at the top end of the recommended range. You can even try 1g as utilized in the calibration note.

 

[wpbilderback]

Stanton 681EEE (NOS)

I redid this one based on feedback from @USER so that this is useful for the group. VTF was set at 1.0g without the brush. As he noted, this sample has a greater treble droop than the one he measured, and what is seen in the old Stereo Review measurement. His was about 6dB down at 20kHz, where as this one is over 12dB. I did manage to get somewhat better results by raising the resistance to 150kΩ but not many phono preamps have this kind of flexibility, so I'm not sure how useful this is. I'll post results using a Jico stylus, which are better.

 

[wpbilderback]

Stanton 681EEE with Jico 680EEE-S Shibata stylus

Here are the results with a Jico Shibata stylus affixed to the same Stanton 681EEE cartridge. As you can see, this stays relatively flat out to about 15kHz, then drops off quickly after that (about 10dB down at 20kHz).

 

[dlaloum]

Stanton 681EEE with Jico 680EEE-S Shibata stylus
View attachment 496229
Here are the results with a Jico Shibata stylus affixed to the same Stanton 681EEE cartridge. As you can see, this stays relatively flat out to about 15kHz, then drops off quickly after that (about 10dB down at 20kHz).

I would try a substantially lower capacitance with this one - under 200pf if possible...

 

[Nomid]

Technics P202C Jico SAS/B. Technics SL-7 with Waxwing phono preamp. Clearaudio CA-TRS-1007 ...105 hours on the stylus.
Edit: Tracking force 1.2 grams

Capacitance is not measured, but its only the original cables from the record player to waxwing

I had better results earlier on the stylus and record.

This cartridge is fine with a Jico SAS/B if you ask me, with the waxwing it's very easy to tame that peak. The ortofon test record gives me much better crosstalk numbers, so again shows something funky with that.

I have a similar results with a Technics P33 cartridge, if not slightly better distortion numbers, better crosstalk on the CA-TRS-1007 record, but worse crosstalk on the Ortofon

 

[Nomid]

Technics P33 Jico SAS/B. Technics SL-7 with Waxwing phono preamp. Clearaudio CA-TRS-1007 ...105 hours on the stylus.
Edit: tracking force 1.2 grams

Capacitance is not measured, but its only the original cables from the record player to waxwing

Same needle, but quick cartridge change to the P33.

It appears to have less of a peak, but worse channel matching, and again the distortion numbers seem ever so slightly lower.

These Technics cartridges with the Jico SAS needles and the Technics linear trackers seem to do just fine.
With the waxwing, as mentioned, it is really not an issue to tame that resonance peak, and i am sure you can use some loads to do the same.

The variance on the test record and needle will probably be higher than between these P mount cartridges.
That said, it kinda looks like the P33 were a step forward, except for the channel matching, But I am curious about the Technics P550 in this regard

 

[wpbilderback]

I would try a substantially lower capacitance with this one - under 200pf if possible...

I have tried that. With less capacitance, the upper treble extends slightly before the sharp roll off, but the price is a slight depression around 5kHz. It's kind of a "pick your poison" situation. For myself, I'd rather lose a bit of extension in the upper frequency range that I can't hear anyway than in the region where human hearing is most sensitive. Of course, all this is system- and individual-dependent. Also, the differences are minor (within +/- 2dB). Anyway, I thought this was the best result overall, which is why I presented it. But anyone can experiment to find the sound profile they prefer.

 

[dlaloum]

I have tried that. With less capacitance, the upper treble extends slightly before the sharp roll off, but the price is a slight depression around 5kHz. It's kind of a "pick your poison" situation. For myself, I'd rather lose a bit of extension in the upper frequency range that I can't hear anyway than in the region where human hearing is most sensitive. Of course, all this is system- and individual-dependent. Also, the differences are minor (within +/- 2dB). Anyway, I thought this was the best result overall, which is why I presented it. But anyone can experiment to find the sound profile they prefer.

Yes - the capacitance is being used to EQ up the midrange dip... so you have a devils choice of either the dip lower down or the limited extension.... this is common to many many cartridges/styli.

The only way to avoid that compromise, is to get a substantially ligher stylus (lower effective mass) - but today the only such stylus I am aware of (with a resonant frequency substantiall above 20kHz) is the Dynavector Karat...

So in the absence of a hollow cantilever... we have to typically choose between the lower dip and the extension... with the Shure V15V and the Jico SAS - I too prefer to flatten the range below 15kHz and suffer the drop off thereafter, rather than chassing flat to 20k and suffering a dip in the much more audible frequencies.

 

[Aldo]

Hello,
I have studied the various publications on measurements with my limited knowledge.
I am looking for an MM cartridge to fit on my father's turntable (a Technics model from the 1970s) which I will soon be inheriting, along with his record collection.
What would be the best value for money within a budget of €150 ? I would have chosen the "Audio-Technica AT-VM95ML".

What else would you recommend?
Thank you!

 

[Thomas_A]

was

Hello,
I have studied the various publications on measurements with my limited knowledge.
I am looking for an MM cartridge to fit on my father's turntable (a Technics model from the 1970s) which I will soon be inheriting, along with his record collection.
What would be the best value for money within a budget of €150 ? I would have chosen the "Audio-Technica AT-VM95ML".

What else would you recommend?
Thank you!

At that price level there are not many choices that have microline stylus.