Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

[dlaloum]

Audio Technica M14LC/U P-mount cart
View attachment 472282

this is one of the various renamed audio technica p mounts. its the solid core generator with a stylus assembly that has a tapered aluminum cantilever and a bonded linear contact diamond. spec wise it looks similar to an at-122lp. im not sure of the chronology though. i was most curious to see what the diamond looked like on this. the 132ep has a nude ogura .2x.7 elliptical and the nude linear contacts from this era look like shibatas. i have a 122ep which is a nude .3x.7 elliptical and it looks much more crude than the ogura and looks similar to whats currently on the vm95en's i have. it performs decently on the hifinews and shure era v tracking tests, but its definitely not in the same league as the top at carts with regard to tracking/tracing. i dont know what im looking at with this diamond, so if anyone has any input as to what cut it is, dimensions or who manufactured it, id love to know!

View attachment 472283View attachment 472287View attachment 472284View attachment 472285View attachment 472286

I believe that this generator family are laminated (not solid) core... and are the P-mount versions of the AT120/140/150 family...

You can fit any of the AT120 to AT150 (and later derivatives) styli to it, however some caution is required due to T4P requirements (compliance and VTF) - vice versa the Styli from this family of T4P cartridges can be mounted to the 1/2" mount cartridges of the related family (which created some opportunities some years back after the 1/2" mount styli became unobtainable, but the T4p spares were still available...)

 

[narud]

I believe that this generator family are laminated (not solid) core... and are the P-mount versions of the AT120/140/150 family...

You can fit any of the AT120 to AT150 (and later derivatives) styli to it, however some caution is required due to T4P requirements (compliance and VTF) - vice versa the Styli from this family of T4P cartridges can be mounted to the 1/2" mount cartridges of the related family (which created some opportunities some years back after the 1/2" mount styli became unobtainable, but the T4p spares were still available...)

i have the following bodies in addition to that one- pm9000, tc350ep and a signet am10p. ive looked inside all of them and they are all solid except for the am10p.

 

[dlaloum]

i have the following bodies in addition to that one- pm9000, tc350ep and a signet am10p. ive looked inside all of them and they are all solid except for the am10p.

I have a couple of signets and a few of the AT bodies... I knew that the top AT ones and the Signets were specced as "laminated" - but this is the first time I have had any sort of confirmation one way or the other! - thank you for that! (I had assumed that the laminations were universal in the body type, but apparently not.)

 

[narud]

Shure V15VXMR NEO SAS (2nd sample)

I stumbled into another neo sas stylus for the v15vxmr or m97xe bodies. Micro ridge looks close to new under the scope. I still had the v15vxmr mounted so i just swapped the stylus assemblies. interesting that it responds a little different than my first sample.

 

[lini]

(...) I knew that the top AT ones and the Signets were specced as "laminated" (...)

Yup, David, in the original AT102P family only the models from the 132EP upwards would sport the two-layer laminated cores/pole pieces - whereas the models from the AT102P up to the AT122LP didn't. And iirc, AT would refer to the coil design of the latter models as "UniCoil" rather than "para-toroidal".

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[dlaloum]

Shure V15VXMR NEO SAS (2nd sample)
View attachment 478733

I stumbled into another neo sas stylus for the v15vxmr or m97xe bodies. Micro ridge looks close to new under the scope. I still had the v15vxmr mounted so i just swapped the stylus assemblies. interesting that it responds a little different than my first sample.

I've found that the optimal setups for the SAS with V15V seemed to be a high to very high C and a lower R loading - that would tame the rise, providing something much closer to a flat F/R - I found that I typically had to sacrifice a little high end (a bit of a roll of) to get the range up to 15kHz as close to flat as possible... after that there was a trade off with more highs (15Khz to 20khz) vs a slight hump in the 8k to 15k range.

The weakness of the SAS is that it is not as low effective mass as the original - as a result it has a resonance within the 14khz to 19khz which raises the level.... (my two 10+ year old examples had resonance measured at 14k and 16k respectively - both were Boron cantilever) with the originals berillium tube the resonance was at 32kHz - which allowed for a lovely flat response without massive tweaking.

 

[DSJR]

You know, a couple of dB over 10kHz is nothing to worry about unless one's phono stage has poor overload tendencies... In fact and as long as the top of the cartridge is level to very slightly tail-down, I'd suggest a slight rise up there is a good thing for many vinyl albums...

According to HiFi Choice, an original V15VMR at lower capacitance loading (47k I believe), had a 5dB droop in a straight line from 1 - 20k and with capacitance loading, flat to 10kHz and then a 5dB drop to 20kHz. No idea what they were doing, but the test bed and discs used are all mentioned in the issue introductions.

Anyway, I hve a lot of cartridges but if finances ever allow, an SAS stylus may well work perfectly in my broken-cantilever V15MR..

 

[Thomas_A]

I've found that the optimal setups for the SAS with V15V seemed to be a high to very high C and a lower R loading - that would tame the rise, providing something much closer to a flat F/R - I found that I typically had to sacrifice a little high end (a bit of a roll of) to get the range up to 15kHz as close to flat as possible... after that there was a trade off with more highs (15Khz to 20khz) vs a slight hump in the 8k to 15k range.

The weakness of the SAS is that it is not as low effective mass as the original - as a result it has a resonance within the 14khz to 19khz which raises the level.... (my two 10+ year old examples had resonance measured at 14k and 16k respectively - both were Boron cantilever) with the originals berillium tube the resonance was at 32kHz - which allowed for a lovely flat response without massive tweaking.

The neo (sapphire) SAS is bit different from the boron though. As seen in this thread, both Shure V15Vx and V15V bodies work quite well with later produced SAS boron and needs just a bit lower R. What the difference is (if any) to the older JICO SAS-B - I have no idea.

 

[narud]

since i have multiple tables set up with one of them having a v15vmr with original stylus, ive left this sapphire sas cart mounted on a table and have been enjoying it for what it is. some of my modern reissue lps are mastered a little rolled off compared to their original releases so the high end lift is nice.

 

[wpbilderback]

Stanton 680 with Jico D6800EEE-S Shibata stylus

Notes: I did not use the brush.

 

[dlaloum]

Stanton 680 with Jico Shibata stylus

View attachment 479780

Notes: I did not use the brush.

When I measured the brush, impact was negligible (unlike the Shure equivalent)....

That is a very nice result! - I would be tempted to try lowering the capacitance - that might reduce the rolloff at the high end, but it might also result in a bit of a hump between 10k and 15k... still worth a try - you might end up sticking to this !

 

[Balle Clorin]

Stanton 680 with Jico Shibata stylus

View attachment 479780

Notes: I did not use the brush.

Which Stanton 680 ? Can I buy any EE EEE EL SL HP and put on a Jico and replicate yours?How does it track ?

 

[wpbilderback]

When I measured the brush, impact was negligible (unlike the Shure equivalent)....

That is a very nice result! - I would be tempted to try lowering the capacitance - that might reduce the rolloff at the high end, but it might also result in a bit of a hump between 10k and 15k... still worth a try - you might end up sticking to this !

Thanks. I started at a lower capacitance, but I found that I got a slight depression between 2kHz and 10kHz, followed by a peak around 15kHz, and then a steep rolloff. I thought 425pF provided the best compromise (especially since I can't hear anything at 15kHz anyway these days!). (Note: Channel matching is not as good on this measurement. That is not the fault of the cartridge. It's because I did not set the input on my ADC carefully enough. It has no markings, so it's tricky to set it precisely.)

 

[wpbilderback]

Which Stanton 680 ? Can I buy any EE EEE EL SL HP and put on a Jico and replicate yours?How does it track ?

Good question. It was a 680 EE. I say was because without the original stylus, it's really just a 680. From what I have been able to gather, and from my experience listening to and measuring them, the bodies are all essentially the same, even the 681 EEE. You should also get a similar result with any Pickering XV-15 body.

I say similar because there are sample-to-sample variations. I've measured two other Stanton 680 variants (one was an 681 EEE) and three or four Pickering XV-15s. They all yielded nearly identical results in terms of frequency response when using the same stylus. The only differences I saw were in terms of stereo separation and channel matching. Those differences were not significant. As far as I can tell, the only difference between any of these carts beyond sample-to-sample variation is the stylus that came with them and the body color. (The 681 EEE was sold as a "calibrated" cartridge, but the calibration only applied to the stylus that came with it.)

I can post a result using a Pickering XV-15 1200 later, and you will see the frequency response is virtually identical. In my experience, any 680/1 or XV-15 will work great with this stylus, with the caveat that I'm not an expert on Stanton/Pickering history and may be unaware of subtle differences in construction over the years.

The Jico Shibata stylus is an excellent tracker in my experience. I found sibilance to be the Achilles' heel of cheaper styli made by Pfanstiehl and EVG. They sounded just fine until you got to a hard "s," and then they sound terrible. Even with greater VTF, I couldn't get rid of it. This is just my personal experience. I don't want to generalize too much, although I have done a lot of experimenting with these carts. If you want to go cheaper, I found the Jico nude conicals to sound good as well, although they require higher VTF to sound their best. I can also post a measurement using one of those later.

 

[narud]

Stanton 680 with Jico D6800EEE-S Shibata stylus

View attachment 479780

Notes: I did not use the brush.

is this one of the newer nude shibatas from this year, or the previous bonded shibata?

 

[wpbilderback]

is this one of the newer nude shibatas from this year, or the previous bonded shibata?

Good question. It is an older, bonded Shibata. I wasn't aware of the change.

 

[mackat]

Ortofon Concorde Music Bronze

I purchased this new at the end of August.

When I received it, the cantilever obviously had not been installed correctly.

I posted about this in another thread, but figured that I would also include it here.

I sent it over to Ortofon in New York, and they agreed. They replaced the stylus with one that had been inspected, and sent the cartridge back to me.

The following measurements were taken with the replacement stylus:

As you can see, at 50k ohm loading, it's nearly +4 dB at 10kHz and +6 dB at 15kHz. When loaded at 28.8k ohms, it presents a much flatter frequency response.

That being said, what on earth is that resonance at 300-400 Hz? It seems to show up in the previously posted measurements as well.

I'm pretty disappointed with Ortofon's QC, or lack thereof, and am therefore in the process of returning this cartridge.

Since I purchased it, MSRP has gone from $399 to $499, presumably due to actual or anticipated tariffs.

 

[dougi]

Ortofon Concorde Music Bronze

I purchased this new at the end of August.

When I received it, the cantilever obviously had not been installed correctly.

I posted about this in another thread, but figured that I would also include it here.

View attachment 479902
View attachment 479903

I sent it over to Ortofon in New York, and they agreed. They replaced the stylus with one that had been inspected, and sent the cartridge back to me.

The following measurements were taken with the replacement stylus:

View attachment 479906
View attachment 479905
As you can see, at 50k ohm loading, it's nearly +4 dB at 10kHz and +6 dB at 15kHz. When loaded at 28.8k ohms, it presents a much flatter frequency response.

That being said, what on earth is that resonance at 300-400 Hz? It seems to show up in the previously posted measurements as well.

I'm pretty disappointed with Ortofon's QC, or lack thereof, and am therefore in the process of returning this cartridge.

Since I purchased it, MSRP has gone from $399 to $499, presumably due to actual or anticipated tariffs.

Yep it is disappointingly poor in terms of the resonance and crosstalk balance. I have not been able to improve the crosstalk balance on mine through rotational tweaks (my were the previous measurements) or reduce the resonant behaviour through any form of addition such as silicone or lead tape or o-rings.

 

[dlaloum]

Which Stanton 680 ? Can I buy any EE EEE EL SL HP and put on a Jico and replicate yours?How does it track ?

From memory, those Stanton bodies are all identical...

 

[JP]

That being said, what on earth is that resonance at 300-400 Hz? It seems to show up in the previously posted measurements as well.

The OMs have weirdness around 500Hz as well: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tridge-measurement-library.46108/post-2229177