Interesting listening experiences with a few CD players

[tcpip]

I just went through some CD player listening experiences which were very interesting to me and also disturbing, because they challenged views built over a couple decades. I posted them here:

Some interesting experiences with modern digital gear

Just thought I'll write about my very interesting and somewhat disturbing experiences in the last one month listening to music through a few CD players. This post is not about building anything, and there's no DIY here, though I'm a DIYer. Hope this is the right forum for this. The "Lounge"...

www.diyaudio.com

Don't want to repeat the full content here.

What do you think? I'm actually quite confused. I am sure some of you have very transparent headphone amps and IEMs, and multiple good DACs. Do you hear audible differences from those DACs?

Anyway I intend to publish whatever I get using NTTY's test CD and my ADI2 FS Pro.

 

[Beave]

Did you match levels precisely? I see no effort to do so.

And, as you yourself note, you didn't make any effort to do this blinded, much less level-matched. So you performed faulty, sighted comparisons and heard differences. Join the club. Now try it with proper controls. It might surprise you yet again!

Of course, I can't rule out the possibility that one of them is measurably different enough to cause audible differences. One might be poorly designed and/or defective in some way. If you can do some measurements, that would also be informative.

If the measurements show a clear reason for hearing differences, there it is. If they don't, go back to my first points about level-matching and blinded listening.

 

[tcpip]

Did you match levels precisely? I see no effort to do so.

Good point. I went one better. I tried changing the level while doing the comparison. I am aware that people generally believe that small increase in gain makes the sound "sound better". I tried actively increasing and decreasing the gain while listening to one player, while keeping the gain untouched for the other. Both increase and decrease left my subjective impressions unchanged.

Since the ADI2 FS Pro gives me a dB readout, I know I changed the gain up and down 2dB or more.

Should have added it to the original post. I just did.

 

[Mart68]

Not entirely clear what is happening here - the analogue output on the two players may be different, not so surprising to me given the make of player B. Not impossible for that to be audible as a subtle difference in tonal balance.

FWIW and based only on sighted comparisons I'd agree with you re the subtle difference in presentation of brands A and B.

Or were you just using them as transport into the RME? In which case, blind test.

I've never noticed any 'edge' to vocals on Sinatra recordings, although I don't own all of them.

 

[tcpip]

Not entirely clear what is happening here - the analogue output on the two players may be different, not so surprising to me given the make of player B. Not impossible for that to be audible as a subtle difference in tonal balance.

Ok. In that case, I'll take this as an additional data point, from you, that these things are observed. As I said, I was expecting no differences. I'll come back to all this after I do my measurements.

Please can you explain? What kind of differences will you expect between these brands of players?

Or were you just using them as transport into the RME? In which case, blind test.

No, I was using the ADI2 FS Pro in preamp mode -- analog line level in, headphone out.

I've never noticed any 'edge' to vocals on Sinatra recordings, although I don't own all of them.

Depends on what words you use, but big band sound has loud brass and wind instruments, which are fairly sharp. If your system goes just a bit over the edge in the 3K-6K region (I think) one will find the sound too sharp. Ditto with sibilance with Shirley Bassey's vocals -- she has a voice like a whip, and once again, your system and ears together must not emphasize this band too much, else they become unlistenable. Hope I could explain.

 

[Mart68]

Ok. In that case, I'll take this as an additional data point, from you, that these things are observed. As I said, I was expecting no differences. I'll come back to all this after I do my measurements.

Please can you explain? What kind of differences will you expect between these brands of players?

I have a fairly extensive collection of CD players. Always found brand 'B' to be slightly softer, slightly less 'etched' - exactly as you, and your son,
have.

I don't discount sighted bias as the cause but it's possible that it isn't that.

Depends on what words you use, but big band sound has loud brass and wind instruments, which are fairly sharp. If your system goes just a bit over the edge in the 3K-6K region (I think) one will find the sound too sharp. Ditto with sibilance with Shirley Bassey's vocals -- she has a voice like a whip, and once again, your system and ears together must not emphasize this band too much, else they become unlistenable. Hope I could explain.

Yes I'll buy that, but since that sort of emphasis really bugs me I've gone the other way with regards to the balance of my system.

Only Bassey I have is on a CD of Bond theme tunes, I agree she is 'challenging'

 

[tcpip]

I don't discount sighted bias as the cause but it's possible that it isn't that.

I eliminated that by bringing my son in. It was "sighted", but he clearly said he heard differences without knowing which was supposed to be what tonality.

I'm most keen to see what happens when I record the analog output to FLAC and share online with you guys, and let's see if any of you can hear any of these differences.

Yes I'll buy that, but since that sort of emphasis really bugs me I've gone the other way with regards to the balance of my system.

Only Bassey I have is on a CD of Bond theme tunes, I agree she is 'challenging'

Ya, I have half a dozen Bassey CDs, specially her "Original album" series (you get them on Amazon in boxes with each CD in a paper sleeve), where the mixing seems to be more "untouched". I use those CDs to do sanity checks of the speakers I build for sibilance -- if her voice is unlistenable, I have a problem. If her voice is nice and rounded, ditto.

All the recent release greatest-hits type of CDs I've had of her seem to be much more tame and lush in tonality, the instruments too are more Carpenters-ish, and I don't like them.

 

[tcpip]

One of the strange things I discovered in my listening tests with the CD players is that I thought that anything which sounded "softer" would lose detail. But I found that Player B allows me to hear more detail and texture, whereas Player A seems to mask some of the details by that edge. (Is this what audiophiles call "digital glare"?)

 

[solderdude]

Record the output of both players using the same song (record at 24/192) and rip that particular song and include that rip for comparison.
After this the discussion should start. Now it is just 'hear-say' and subjective opinions.

 

[Mart68]

I eliminated that by bringing my son in. It was "sighted", but he clearly said he heard differences without knowing which was supposed to be what tonality.

No, you didn't, due to the 'Clever Hans' effect. If you want to go beyond any doubt, blind test properly.

 

[markstein]

Why don't you just connect the CD player to your RME ADI-2 via digital connection and use the RME as DAC? It has state-of-the-art jitter correction. Should be the optimum solution for your use case.

Also - intersample clipping common with CD content should not be an issue when using the RME and the correct settings.

 

[tcpip]

No, you didn't, due to the 'Clever Hans' effect. If you want to go beyond any doubt, blind test properly.

To each his own, I guess. I won't blind test for this one.

 

[tcpip]

Why don't you just connect the CD player to your RME ADI-2 via digital connection and use the RME as DAC? It has state-of-the-art jitter correction. Should be the optimum solution for your use case.

Also - intersample clipping common with CD content should not be an issue when using the RME and the correct settings.

If I want clean sound out of (any one) CD player, this will solve it perfectly. My entire post was not about how to fix the sound of Player A, but to bring out the fact that there seems to be a subjective difference in the sound even at these high price points.

 

[tcpip]

Record the output of both players using the same song (record at 24/192) and rip that particular song and include that rip for comparison.
After this the discussion should start. Now it is just 'hear-say' and subjective opinions.

Yes, will do, 100%. This is the most important next step.

(You too have an ADI2 FS Pro, I see. Kewl.)

 

[Stefano_Milano]

I would listen to one speaker only in mono to compare CD players. A slight difference between channels (0.10 dB) is enough to change the overall timbre. Especially in classical music where the lower instruments are often on the right.

 

[solderdude]

(You too have an ADI2 FS Pro, I see. Kewl.)

Alas no...

 

[Grotti]

To each his own, I guess. I won't blind test for this one.

Then there is nothing to discuss because there is no objective evidence here. How to perform a proper ABX test and why this is important is subject to various threads here: just search for it.

Edit for typo

 

[markstein]

If I want clean sound out of (any one) CD player, this will solve it perfectly. My entire post was not about how to fix the sound of Player A, but to bring out the fact that there seems to be a subjective difference in the sound even at these high price points.

No surprise for me, given the CD player test results of user @NTTY which are showing that CD players are no solved problem, especially regarding intersample clipping.

 

[Mart68]

No surprise for me, given the CD player test results of user @NTTY which are showing that CD players are no solved problem, especially regarding intersample clipping.

Actually, so far they've shown the opposite. Intersample clipping is rare and as far as I'm aware the evidence is that it isn't audible.

Happy to be corrected if you have any references to the contrary.

 

[markstein]

Is there scientific evidence that it's inaudible? Could you please provide Details?