Interesting issue with Tidal at force max volume - peaks clipping?

[NDC]

Recently I purchased Soundsource for Mac OS, which has little level meters that show whether the signal from a specific application is clipping or not. I was using it as the host for a parametric EQ plugin so I could utilise Oratory1990's useful target curves (e.g. Sennheiser HD58x - https://www.dropbox.com/s/lr0t5bm0g9h167t/Sennheiser HD58X.pdf?dl=0)

I noticed that with Tidal set to 'force max volume' Soundsource was showing clipping on its level meters with certain tracks. And I was noticing some distortion as well. The reason I came across this at all was because I was applying oratory1990's harman target EQ curve for my HD58x using Soundsource + AUNBandEQ; and even with the parametric EQ global gain at -5.5 per oratory's advice I was noticing potential for clipping on some tracks post-EQ.

One solution was to set Tidal's "loudness normalisation" to on (I had switched it off though it is on by default) and this drops max volume to something like 0.56 or so of its normal max of 1 - I think this is their version of unity gain? And obviously no clipping any more.

Has anyone noticed Tidal clipping at max volume?

After a bit of googling I noticed someone else had posted about this a while back on a different forum but didn't get any replies - they might explain it better than I have (https://www.macosaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52145&p=380745)

 

[Jimbob54]

Recently I purchased Soundsource for Mac OS, which has little level meters that show whether the signal from a specific application is clipping or not. I was using it as the host for a parametric EQ plugin so I could utilise Oratory1990's useful target curves (e.g. Sennheiser HD58x - https://www.dropbox.com/s/lr0t5bm0g9h167t/Sennheiser HD58X.pdf?dl=0)

I noticed that with Tidal set to 'force max volume' Soundsource was showing clipping on its level meters with certain tracks. And I was noticing some distortion as well. The reason I came across this at all was because I was applying oratory1990's harman target EQ curve for my HD58x using Soundsource + AUNBandEQ; and even with the parametric EQ global gain at -5.5 per oratory's advice I was noticing potential for clipping on some tracks post-EQ.

One solution was to set Tidal's "loudness normalisation" to on (I had switched it off though it is on by default) and this drops max volume to something like 0.56 or so of its normal max of 1 - I think this is their version of unity gain? And obviously no clipping any more.

Has anyone noticed Tidal clipping at max volume?

After a bit of googling I noticed someone else had posted about this a while back on a different forum but didn't get any replies - they might explain it better than I have (https://www.macosaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52145&p=380745)

Disable all your eq etc, does it show clipping with no preamp adjustment, volume normalisation etc?

I recall another user here having a similar mac problem.

If you don't like volume normalising just keep lowering the preamp on the eq until it stops showing clipping.

Also, are you upsampling? I just noticed today a few tracks clip if up sampled but don't if I pass to dac at source sample rates

 

[NDC]

Disable all your eq etc, does it show clipping with no preamp adjustment, volume normalisation etc?

I recall another user here having a similar mac problem.

If you don't like volume normalising just keep lowering the preamp on the eq until it stops showing clipping.

Also, are you upsampling? I just noticed today a few tracks clip if up sampled but don't if I pass to dac at source sample rates

Hi Jimbob - yes if I disable EQ/volume normalisation it clips.

However I am upsampling to 192khz, and when reducing back to the source sample rate of 44100 - it did not clip! Interesting - I wonder why the upsampling causes the clipping.

Edit: Dropped my sample rate to 44.1khz; turned volume normalisation back off and no clipping out of Tidal. Dropped the preamp gain another 1.5db on the parametric EQ and maintained no clipping in the system output. Solved! Thanks Jimbob

 

[Jimbob54]

Hi Jimbob - yes if I disable EQ/volume normalisation it clips.

However I am upsampling to 192khz, and when reducing back to the source sample rate of 44100 - it did not clip! Interesting - I wonder why the upsampling causes the clipping.

Edit: Dropped my sample rate to 44.1khz; turned volume normalisation back off and no clipping out of Tidal. Dropped the preamp gain another 1.5db on the parametric EQ and maintained no clipping in the system output. Solved! Thanks Jimbob

There is a technical answer that I can neither recall the whereabouts of nor understand! The bulk of members here (if not elsewhere) would tell you upsampling brings no benefits so far better diable than risk clipping. I only upsample as one DAC does not like 88.2 sample rate , so i up to 96 and caught one very shouty track clipping.

 

[NDC]

There is a technical answer that I can neither recall the whereabouts of nor understand! The bulk of members here (if not elsewhere) would tell you upsampling brings no benefits so far better diable than risk clipping. I only upsample as one DAC does not like 88.2 sample rate , so i up to 96 and caught one very shouty track clipping.

Makes sense. I am listening in hifi quality in Tidal in any case so there was no need for me to set the sample rate higher than 44.1 with the E30. I’m not sure I can hear the difference with the ‘hi-res’ stuff in any case.

One of the problems re: sample rate selection with using SoundSource and the AUNbandEQ plugin is that I can’t put Tidal in exclusive mode and allow it to dynamically change sample rate as needed (if I was listening in so called ‘master’ quality). I think this bypasses the parametric EQ that SoundSource applies. I’m listening in hifi quality now but useful to know if anyone else has the same issues.

 

[Jimbob54]

Makes sense. I am listening in hifi quality in Tidal in any case so there was no need for me to set the sample rate higher than 44.1 with the E30. I’m not sure I can hear the difference with the ‘hi-res’ stuff in any case.

One of the problems re: sample rate selection with using SoundSource and the AUNbandEQ plugin is that I can’t put Tidal in exclusive mode and allow it to dynamically change sample rate as needed (if I was listening in so called ‘master’ quality). I think this bypasses the parametric EQ that SoundSource applies. I’m listening in hifi quality now but useful to know if anyone else has the same issues.

To be fair, any EQ is messing with "bit perfect" anyway so I wouldnt worry about not getting the sample rate that comes through the pipe.

 

[RayDunzl]

I wonder why the upsampling causes the clipping.

My presumption would be "intersample overs".

In this hand-drawn example, the two less than full range samples at 44.1kHz translate to 1.502dB over the limit when upsampled.

 

[NDC]

My presumption would be "intersample overs".

In this hand-drawn example, the two less than full range samples at 44.1kHz translate to 1.502dB over the limit when upsampled.

View attachment 74698

Thanks Ray - that’s a great illustration, been doing a bit of reading on it - makes sense that is what is happening.