• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Integrating Subs for 2-channel

speedy

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
56
Likes
64
Location
Seattle
What is everyone's take on the best way to integrate subs for 2-channel?

Most of my experience with audio has been in the home theater space and I've grown accustomed to having high-pass and low-pass filters built-in for setting crossovers on my a/v processors and I also typically have a miniDSP sitting in front of my dual subs.

Up to this point, I've done all my 2-channel listening without subwoofers, but it kills me that I have dual 16" subs just sitting in the same room where I do my music listening. I've tried simply connecting my DAC to my subs and then setting a low-pass filter on my subs before going to my amp... this just doesn't sound right to me though compared to what I've grown accustomed to with home theater processors.

I've been considering giving the JL Audio CR-1 active crossover a try... has anyone ever used one of these before? I'm thinking that I could run my DAC L/R channels into the JL CR-1, JL CR-1 sub XLR into my miniDSP 4x10 HD (my AVP sub output into this as well) and L/R out into a 2x1 XLR switch (my AVP L/R channels would also connect to the switch), and the switches output into my amp. Seems a little over the top, but I figure that it would allow me to proper bass management for both 2-channel & home theater.

Thoughts?
 

Soniclife

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,500
Likes
5,417
Location
UK
I find crossing over 4th order works best, and I also think time aligning the subs and the mains really helps, which usually involves delaying the mains.
 

fredoamigo

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
605
Likes
999
Location
South East France
I have always remained in expectation as for the quality of the integration of subwoofers with filters of the Marchand WM8, JL AUDIO cr1 or Bryson 10B vs DSPs? this subject interests me ! :cool:
 

Juhazi

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
1,717
Likes
2,897
Location
Finland
Is this same room and same speakers for HT and stereo? Why don't you simply use your HT system to play stereo source with subs? Does your AVP/R allow .2 stereo subs with stereo signal? What is your music format and sources - analog or/and digital, cd , files, streaming?

CR-1 with minidsp 4x10HD system with switches I don't understand, sounds complicated...

Just buy a minidsp 2x4HD (or a module if you must use balanced), set L and R signal routing to SL/SR and main L/R speakers respectively. Place the subs close to main speakers. Set xo LR2 around 100-200Hz and enjoy 2.2 stereo with amazingly coherent and lifelike bass! Measuring and eq'ing responses before setting xo is very important, but a little difficult. Semi-nearfield mic on the floor is best way. Like Soniclife said, I noticed too that mains must have some delay, 0.2-1 ms in my case. This gets more critical when xo freq goes up and LR2, but is crucial for integration and the reason you must run signal to mains through the same dsp unit.
 

DonH56

Master Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
7,835
Likes
16,498
Location
Monument, CO
I assume you do not want to use the miniDSP for the HPF to drive the mains? Otherwise that would seem to be the way to do it; it will handle crossovers and phase alignment for you. The easiest way would be to just use bass management in your AVR assuming it has it (all I have seen do) then use the miniDSP to align the subs (I assume more than one since you used plural) so the AVR "sees" just one subwoofer. Anything else can quickly get much more complicated.

I have used the little dbx 223 analog crossover for many years as an inexpensive pro-level Linkwitz-Riley crossover (24 dB/octave). Marchand, JL, Bryston, DEQx, miniDSP, etc. etc. etc. also make crossovers or devices that can serve as such, natch. The dbx is pretty cheap (~$200 USD) and is "old-school" analog so easy for a novice to set up.

The (a) problem with integration is aligning the phase at the crossover point. My subs (Rythmik) have a continuous phase control, and something like a miniDSP allows you to perform phase/time alignment, so any of the basic analog or digital crossovers plus the miniDSP should work. The caveat is that, if you only use the miniDSP for the subs, you have to adjust delay someplace to get the subs and mains in phase, or locate the subs (and mains) such that they are in phase at the crossover point. above and below, the signal is rolling off, so alignment becomes gradually less critical.

HTH - Don
 

Ron Texas

Master Contributor
Joined
Jun 10, 2018
Messages
6,078
Likes
8,916
I find crossing over 4th order works best, and I also think time aligning the subs and the mains really helps, which usually involves delaying the mains.

How do you do that?
 

TimW

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
1,065
Likes
1,406
Location
Seattle, WA
@speedy right now you are using your miniDSP 4x10HD just for your subwoofers right? As in you connect the subwoofer output of your AVP to the input of the 4x10HD and use it to divide up that signal for the dual subs? Are you performing any manual room correction eq to the sub signal with the 4x10HD?

I propose that you create two presets for your miniDSP 4x10HD. One for home theater and one for stereo. Keep the home theater preset as it is now but for stereo use the 4x10HD for your high-pass and low-pass filters along with time alignment and manual room correction. You can feed it a full range analog signal from your DAC or preferably just connect the miniDSP directly to your digital source. Then as you proposed, connect the L/R out of the miniDSP to a 2x1 XLR switch so that you can use the same amplifier for home theater and stereo.

miniDSP products get a bad rap because the 2x4HD measured here did not perform excellently as a DAC. It performed well enough in my opinion but people here seem to have an obsession with DAC performance so they don't like to recommend it. Of course if you compare the performance of AVR's and AVP's that have been measured here, the 2x4HD looks great. And the 2x4HD is based on a different platform than your 4x10HD which is supposed to have better performance according to the datasheet. So I don't see a reason why you shouldn't use the 4x10HD as your DSP, DAC, and preamp for stereo listening. Sure your current stereo DAC probably has slightly better performance but I doubt you would be able to hear the difference between it and the miniDSP in a blind comparison. What you definitly could hear is the improvement in stereo listening with properly integrated subs using the power of DSP.

The JL Audio CR-1 looks nice and would work okay but you just get so much more adjust-ability with DSP for so much less money. Not to mention the spec of < 0.002% (at 8 Vrms/10 kΩ 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 90 kHz bandwidth) for the CR-1 is not that great. I would not recommend buying it at the $3000 asking price, especially when you already have an adequate tool for the job.
 

fredoamigo

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
605
Likes
999
Location
South East France
The JL Audio CR-1 looks nice and would work okay but you just get so much more adjust-ability with DSP for so much less money. Not to mention the spec of < 0.002% (at 8 Vrms/10 kΩ 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 90 kHz bandwidth) for the CR-1 is not that great. I would not recommend buying it at the $3000 asking price, especially when you already have an adequate tool for the job
I don't understand the interest of buying the JL AUDIO CR1 at 3000 usd when you can have an anthem str preamplifier at 3200 USD (ebay) with full subtitles bass management and drc arc 2??
 

Soniclife

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,500
Likes
5,417
Location
UK
I don't understand the interest of buying the JL AUDIO CR1 at 3000 usd when you can have an anthem str preamplifier at 3200 USD (ebay) with full subtitles bass management and drc arc 2??
Agreed, or a mini DSP SHD for a lot less.
 
OP
speedy

speedy

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
56
Likes
64
Location
Seattle
@speedy right now you are using your miniDSP 4x10HD just for your subwoofers right? As in you connect the subwoofer output of your AVP to the input of the 4x10HD and use it to divide up that signal for the dual subs? Are you performing any manual room correction eq to the sub signal with the 4x10HD?

I propose that you create two presets for your miniDSP 4x10HD. One for home theater and one for stereo. Keep the home theater preset as it is now but for stereo use the 4x10HD for your high-pass and low-pass filters along with time alignment and manual room correction. You can feed it a full range analog signal from your DAC or preferably just connect the miniDSP directly to your digital source. Then as you proposed, connect the L/R out of the miniDSP to a 2x1 XLR switch so that you can use the same amplifier for home theater and stereo.

miniDSP products get a bad rap because the 2x4HD measured here did not perform excellently as a DAC. It performed well enough in my opinion but people here seem to have an obsession with DAC performance so they don't like to recommend it. Of course if you compare the performance of AVR's and AVP's that have been measured here, the 2x4HD looks great. And the 2x4HD is based on a different platform than your 4x10HD which is supposed to have better performance according to the datasheet. So I don't see a reason why you shouldn't use the 4x10HD as your DSP, DAC, and preamp for stereo listening. Sure your current stereo DAC probably has slightly better performance but I doubt you would be able to hear the difference between it and the miniDSP in a blind comparison. What you definitly could hear is the improvement in stereo listening with properly integrated subs using the power of DSP.
Many great points and thank you for such a detailed post.
Correct, I'm just using the miniDSP for my subs currently and my AVP's sub out is connected to it.
Yes, I'm performing "manual" room correction with the miniDSP. I measured with REW and used MSO to generate FIR files.

You're right... I'm having a hard time getting over putting the miniDSP between my 2-channel DAC (Matrix Element X) and my L/R channels. Maybe I just need to get over it, but it just seems wrong to have a good DAC to do its ADC and to then feed analog to another DSP/DAC which will convert to Digital, process, and then back to Analog. By the time I do all those conversions it seems like I'd probably just better off using my AVP for 2-channel listening.

Is this same room and same speakers for HT and stereo? Why don't you simply use your HT system to play stereo source with subs? Does your AVP/R allow .2 stereo subs with stereo signal? What is your music format and sources - analog or/and digital, cd , files, streaming?.
Yes, same room.
I don't want to do my music listening through the HT system (by which I assume you mean AVP) because 2-channel basic DACs tend to have much performance as the reviews/measurements here have been illustrating.
My AVP doesn't support dual subs.
I play all my music digitally from Roon.

Agreed, or a mini DSP SHD for a lot less.
These are excellent. I would get one of these in a second if it was a certified Roon Ready device, but it unfortunately still isn't and I don't want to deal with hacking Volumio to make it work in an unsupported way. I've tried using unsupported devices with Roon in the past and it has always been a nightmare.

The JL Audio CR-1 looks nice and would work okay but you just get so much more adjust-ability with DSP for so much less money. Not to mention the spec of < 0.002% (at 8 Vrms/10 kΩ 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 90 kHz bandwidth) for the CR-1 is not that great. I would not recommend buying it at the $3000 asking price, especially when you already have an adequate tool for the job.
 
Last edited:

TimW

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
1,065
Likes
1,406
Location
Seattle, WA
Many great points and thank you for such a detailed post.
Correct, I'm just using the miniDSP for my subs currently and my AVP's sub out is connected to it.
Yes, I'm performing "manual" room correction with the miniDSP. I measured with REW and used MSO to generate FIR files.

You're right... I'm having a hard time getting over putting the miniDSP between my 2-channel DAC (Matrix Element X) and my L/R channels. Maybe I just need to get over it, but it just seems wrong to have a good DAC to do its ADC and to then feed analog to another DSP/DAC which will convert to Digital, process, and then back to Analog. By the time I do all those conversions it seems like I'd probably just better off using my AVP for 2-channel listening.

To be honest if I had a Matrix Element X, I also wouldn't want to send its output through an ADC/DAC stage of lower quality. I also wouldn't want to send that output through an analog crossover like the JL Audio CR-1.

If I were you I would probably pick up a miniDSP SHD Studio and connect one of its digital outputs to the Matrix Element X. Then connect the analog output of the Element X to the power amplifier and connect the other digital output of the SHD to your 4x10HD. That way you still get great DSP functionality along with the excellent performance of your Matrix. Unfortunately you wouldn't be able to use the the streaming or preamp capabilities of the Element X anymore but the SHD can perform those tasks.

Better yet you could get the full SHD instead of the studio and then replace the 4x10HD with it. This would work in the same way as the aforementioned setup but you would have less boxes and a better subwoofer DAC.

Either way you gain Dirac Live which is great if you want to automate your room correction. But not so great if you wanted to continue going the "manual" route since you're forced to pay for the Dirac license to get the hardware.
 
OP
speedy

speedy

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
56
Likes
64
Location
Seattle
I assume you do not want to use the miniDSP for the HPF to drive the mains? Otherwise that would seem to be the way to do it; it will handle crossovers and phase alignment for you. The easiest way would be to just use bass management in your AVR assuming it has it (all I have seen do) then use the miniDSP to align the subs (I assume more than one since you used plural) so the AVR "sees" just one subwoofer. Anything else can quickly get much more complicated.

I have used the little dbx 223 analog crossover for many years as an inexpensive pro-level Linkwitz-Riley crossover (24 dB/octave). Marchand, JL, Bryston, DEQx, miniDSP, etc. etc. etc. also make crossovers or devices that can serve as such, natch. The dbx is pretty cheap (~$200 USD) and is "old-school" analog so easy for a novice to set up.

The (a) problem with integration is aligning the phase at the crossover point. My subs (Rythmik) have a continuous phase control, and something like a miniDSP allows you to perform phase/time alignment, so any of the basic analog or digital crossovers plus the miniDSP should work. The caveat is that, if you only use the miniDSP for the subs, you have to adjust delay someplace to get the subs and mains in phase, or locate the subs (and mains) such that they are in phase at the crossover point. above and below, the signal is rolling off, so alignment becomes gradually less critical.

HTH - Don
Correct, I've been trying to avoid using the miniDSP for my mains.
Agreed, the AVP makes bass management so easy and same with the miniDSP for alignment.
Exactly, my AVP only supports a single sub so I use the miniDSP between the AVP and the subs to correct and make the dual subs appear as one.
My subs also have continuous phase control. I've alternated historically between doing this on the miniDSP with REW/MSO and my SVS SB16-Ultra subs manually (via Bluetooth app).
 
OP
speedy

speedy

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Messages
56
Likes
64
Location
Seattle
To be honest if I had a Matrix Element X, I also wouldn't want to send its output through an ADC/DAC stage of lower quality. I also wouldn't want to send that output through an analog crossover like the JL Audio CR-1.

If I were you I would probably pick up a miniDSP SHD Studio and connect one of its digital outputs to the Matrix Element X. Then connect the analog output of the Element X to the power amplifier and connect the other digital output of the SHD to your 4x10HD. That way you still get great DSP functionality along with the excellent performance of your Matrix. Unfortunately you wouldn't be able to use the the streaming or preamp capabilities of the Element X anymore but the SHD can perform those tasks.

Better yet you could get the full SHD instead of the studio and then replace the 4x10HD with it. This would work in the same way as the aforementioned setup but you would have less boxes and a better subwoofer DAC.

Either way you gain Dirac Live which is great if you want to automate your room correction. But not so great if you wanted to continue going the "manual" route since you're forced to pay for the Dirac license to get the hardware.
I've considered doing this too, but I need my streamer to be Roon Ready which Volumio and SHD consequently are not...
 

TimW

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
1,065
Likes
1,406
Location
Seattle, WA
I've considered doing this too, but I need my streamer to be Roon Ready which Volumio and SHD consequently are not...

I have this problem as well. I have my SHD connected directly to my Roon core via USB right now. I would like to move the core to another room but then the only streaming option with Roon would be Airplay. In the miniDSP 2019 Q3 Newsletter they announced that, "While not ready for primetime, we're indeed actively working for an exciting new streaming option for the SHD series. Once again a free upgrade. Stay tuned!" My fingers are crossed that this new streaming option will be native Roon support and I hope it comes soon!
 

Juhazi

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
1,717
Likes
2,897
Location
Finland
My goodness, life is getting so complicated... :p
 

Soniclife

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,500
Likes
5,417
Location
UK
I've considered doing this too, but I need my streamer to be Roon Ready which Volumio and SHD consequently are not...
Sounds like a job for a pi or similar small computer, or Chromecast.
 
Top Bottom