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Integrating a turntable into a digital system

al2002

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The other day, I ventured into a record store and couldn't resist buying the latest TOOL on vinyl. It's a huge and gorgeous package with beautiful artwork and 5 records!

I'd love to check out how it sounds but not only I don't have a record player, my entire system is digital! So here I am, reaching out to this lovely community for help on how to integrate a turntable into my setup. I'm not looking for turntable advice, that choice will somewhat depend on the rest of the setup.

Here's how my system looks:

Computer → [USB cable] → MiniDSP SHD Studio → [digital XLR cables] → Genelecs 8351

Now, here's my options based on my research:

1) USB turntable → USB>Coax box → Coax cable → MiniDSP → …

2) Turntable → phono pre-amp with digital out → MiniDSP → …

3) Turntable → phono pre-amp → ADC (?) → MiniDSP → …

4) Turntable with phono pre-amp → RCA to XLR cable (would this even work?) → Genelecs

And my questions:

1. First of all, are there any other options that would let me minimize the number of elements/boxes and not destroy my wallet?
2. Can I ask for recommendations on the red pieces please? I wouldn't want to spend more than $300 - $400.

Thanks!!
I’d suggest option 3. Have a look at the E1DA Cosmos ADC. B grade should suffice.

Edit: The Puffin phono stage with SPDIF option is a one box solution.

Edit 2: I see the Cosmos and Puffin have both been mentioned earlier in this thread.
 
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wgh52

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@tonycollinet
@levimax
Thanks a lot for your suggestions!

The need for level controls, e.g. to adjust channel balance and overall level, is a very valid point! I have missed this feature in my Phono PreAmps "for a long time"! Anyways, ADC insertion into the DSP unit is still tempting, maybe I can at least use the DSP internal clock source with the ADC in clock-slavemode and connect audio via SPDIF....? We'll see.

I will definitely go with the external ADC>SPDIF>DSP option to begin with and listen to my LP record Music ;) :cool: :)

Greetings,
Winfried
 

al2002

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@tonycollinet
@levimax
Thanks a lot for your suggestions!

The need for level controls, e.g. to adjust channel balance and overall level, is a very valid point! I have missed this feature in my Phono PreAmps "for a long time"! Anyways, ADC insertion into the DSP unit is still tempting, maybe I can at least use the DSP internal clock source with the ADC in clock-slavemode and connect audio via SPDIF....? We'll see.

I will definitely go with the external ADC>SPDIF>DSP option to begin with and listen to my LP record Music ;) :cool: :)

Greetings,
Winfried
Your digital media player app should have volume/ balance controls, so you don’t need them in the phono stage.
 

dualazmak

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levimax

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Your digital media player app should have volume/ balance controls, so you don’t need them in the phono stage.
You need volume control between the phono stage and ADC in almost all cases unless you are lucky enough to have the gain "just right" by happenstance. A TT is not some well behaved digital source, if the level is "too low" you will have to add gain and noise down the line and if too high you will get digital clipping. Due to pops and clicks and headroom and large variation between not just carts but even records (especially if you play any 45 rpm records) you need to have the input level to the ADC right and adjustable.
 

wgh52

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Your digital media player app should have volume/ balance controls, so you don’t need them in the phono stage.
Well, let me just clarify that there is no PC in my digital chain and will not be, I don't like and don' t need it for Signal Processing or Streaming. The Phonosignal will continue to feed directly into the DSP x-over like in the past (with DEQX).

Regards,
Winfried
 

wgh52

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@ dualazmak
No, I had not yet seen your great set up and background descriptionss, but have now screened through them. My own set-up is somewhat different and surely is not as high-end as yours ;) So, let me post a diagram of mine:

anlagenschaltung mit Flex 8 + ADC extern.png

This shall be the initial implementation, but alternatively, the board may "go" into the Flex Eight. It seems to me that alternatives may be to sacrifice the Flex Eight Toslink or bluetooth input....

Greetings,
Winfried
 

wgh52

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@ levimax

The necessity for a volume control is understood as so far I had done AD conversion with a 16/44 MD recorder and did that there anyway.

Thanks,
Winfried
 

MaxwellsEq

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@ dualazmak
No, I had not yet seen your great set up and background descriptionss, but have now screened through them. My own set-up is somewhat different and surely is not as high-end as yours ;) So, let me post a diagram of mine:

View attachment 273520
This shall be the initial implementation, but alternatively, the board may "go" into the Flex Eight. It seems to me that alternatives may be to sacrifice the Flex Eight Toslink or bluetooth input....

Greetings,
Winfried
Are you already using the Funk CAS? If so, are you happy with it?
 
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dualazmak

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@ dualazmak
No, I had not yet seen your great set up and background descriptionss, but have now screened through them. My own set-up is somewhat different and surely is not as high-end as yours ;) So, let me post a diagram of mine:

View attachment 273520
This shall be the initial implementation, but alternatively, the board may "go" into the Flex Eight. It seems to me that alternatives may be to sacrifice the Flex Eight Toslink or bluetooth input....

Greetings,
Winfried

Thank you for sharing your system diagram; I understand well your system building policy mainly using S/P-DIF coax and Toslink inputs.
Let me share my system diagrams and photos again here just for comparative overview with yours;
WS00005127.JPG


WS00005129.JPG


WS00005128.JPG


WS00005124 (1).JPG


WS00005123.JPG


Just for your reference, I have already ripped/digitized almost all of my about 2,500 CDs and 500 LPs into my PC-SSD music library (please refer to here and here), and my audio-visual dedicated Windows 11 Pro 64 bit PC runs JRiver MC (and Roon, if needed) as music center together with DSP EKIO as system-wide XO/EQ center. The details of my latest system setup including Fq response curves can be found here and here (vinyl TT incorporated).
WS00005125 (1).JPG


My Windows PC can also work as TV station using the large Panasonic TH-55HZ1800 55-inch OLED 4K TV as 4K PC monitor serving all the digital audio signals into DSP EKIO for audio processing as described here.
 

Smitty2k1

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Now y'all got me wondering if I shouldn't be using the phono input on my Denon x3500 AVR and instead need to get a phono-pre as well as an ADC :)
 

wgh52

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Are you already using the Funk CAS? If so, are you happy with it?
@ MaxwellsEq
I have used the Funk CAS since over ten years and it was of good use, seemingly sound transparent. The only "problem" or inconvenience was/is that there's no "nice" way of marking or labeling the (numbered) inputs and ourputs.

Greetings,
Winfried
 

wgh52

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@ dualazmak
Comparing your set-up with mine obviates my very different goal: I want to listen to all my existing/old sources and media with digitally activated (DIY) Speakers in my living room. That's why my set-up's focus is digital, but also on an as direct as possible LP/phono signal AD conversion, preferrably with the DSP resolution clock (i.e. 24/96).

Regards,
Winfried
 

dualazmak

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I want to listen to all my existing/old sources and media with digitally activated (DIY) Speakers in my living room. That's why my set-up's focus is digital, but also on an as direct as possible LP/phono signal AD conversion, preferrably with the DSP resolution clock (i.e. 24/96).

I feel your goal and mine would have very much similarity. Even though I ripped and digitized almost all of my CDs, SACDs and vinyl LPs into my digital library, I still occasionally would like to listen to vinyl LPs real-time on-the-fly with my DSP based XO/EQ/delay multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier setup. I have recently revived/re-incorporated, therefore, my vinyl LP TT (DENON DP-57L +DL-301MkII) in the system by using AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-PEQ30 phono MM/MC preamp and TASCAM US-1x2HR ADC for real-time 24/192 or 24/96 DSP processing, as shared in detail in my post here.

BTW, just for my interests and curiosity, I will soon get very nicely recorded jazz trio music album in 45 rpm "heavy" 12-inch stereo 2-LP together with its recent exact CD re-release (yesterday I have ordered both at Amazon); the possible comparative listening to real-time on-the-fly 45 rpm LPs (after my "established" full wash/cleaning) versus ripped CD re-release version would be really interesting and fun, I assume. I will share my such comparative listening on this thread and/or on my project thread within a month or two.
 

MaxwellsEq

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@ MaxwellsEq
I have used the Funk CAS since over ten years and it was of good use, seemingly sound transparent. The only "problem" or inconvenience was/is that there's no "nice" way of marking or labeling the (numbered) inputs and ourputs.

Greetings,
Winfried
Thanks, Winfried!
 

al2002

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You need volume control between the phono stage and ADC in almost all cases unless you are lucky enough to have the gain "just right" by happenstance. A TT is not some well behaved digital source, if the level is "too low" you will have to add gain and noise down the line and if too high you will get digital clipping. Due to pops and clicks and headroom and large variation between not just carts but even records (especially if you play any 45 rpm records) you need to have the input level to the ADC right and adjustable.
As long as the ADC doesn't overload - IOW, keep the phono stage gain reasonable, around 30 dB for MM - there's no need for a level control between the phono stage and ADC. Of course, somewhere in the gain chain master volume and balance controls are neccessary.

Recall, back in the day of all-in-one integrateds and receivers phono gain was fixed.
 
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al2002

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Well, let me just clarify that there is no PC in my digital chain and will not be, I don't like and don' t need it for Signal Processing or Streaming. The Phonosignal will continue to feed directly into the DSP x-over like in the past (with DEQX).

Regards,
Winfried
Sorry, I thought I was replying to the OP who has a computer based system

My DEQX 2.6 had analogue inputs so adding an phono stage should be straightforward. Would you mind explaining what your existing signal path is, and how you want to connect the phono stage?
 
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al2002

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I feel your goal and mine would have very much similarity. Even though I ripped and digitized almost all of my CDs, SACDs and vinyl LPs into my digital library, I still occasionally would like to listen to vinyl LPs real-time on-the-fly with my DSP based XO/EQ/delay multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier setup. I have recently revived/re-incorporated, therefore, my vinyl LP TT (DENON DP-57L +DL-301MkII) in the system by using AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-PEQ30 phono MM/MC preamp and TASCAM US-1x2HR ADC for real-time 24/192 or 24/96 DSP processing, as shared in detail in my post here.

BTW, just for my interests and curiosity, I will soon get very nicely recorded jazz trio music album in 45 rpm "heavy" 12-inch stereo 2-LP together with its recent exact CD re-release (yesterday I have ordered both at Amazon); the possible comparative listening to real-time on-the-fly 45 rpm LPs (after my "established" full wash/cleaning) versus ripped CD re-release version would be really interesting and fun, I assume. I will share my such comparative listening on this thread and/or on my project thread within a month or two.
Interesting. What is the name of this Jazz album? Can you provide a link?
 

levimax

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As long as the ADC doesn't overload - IOW, keep the phono stage gain reasonable, around 30 dB for MM - there's no need for a level control between the phono stage and ADC. Of course, somewhere in the gain chain master volume and balance controls are neccessary.

Recall, back in the day of all-in-one integrateds and receivers phono gain was fixed.
We will agree to disagree. My only concern is that people reading this will run into easily avoidable problems. One issue is digital clipping which is much worse than analog clipping back in the day of all in one receivers which are not at all the same as hooking up a TT to an ADC. Another is many modern systems only have digital gain which gets used up with digital EQ so if the TT onput is too low there may not be enough gain to play loud enough. In addition the output of different records, carts, and phono stages vary widely. Finally since the TT will not be the only source it is nice to have the level matched between sources. That is why I like music interface ADC's like the Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 or similar for adding a TT to a digital system.
 

al2002

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We will agree to disagree. My only concern is that people reading this will run into easily avoidable problems. One issue is digital clipping which is much worse than analog clipping back in the day of all in one receivers which are not at all the same as hooking up a TT to an ADC. Another is many modern systems only have digital gain which gets used up with digital EQ so if the TT onput is too low there may not be enough gain to play loud enough. In addition the output of different records, carts, and phono stages vary widely. Finally since the TT will not be the only source it is nice to have the level matched between sources. That is why I like music interface ADC's like the Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 or similar for adding a TT to a digital system.
Not sure what there is to disagree about.

Let‘s start from first principles and run some numbers. Take a MM cartridge e.g., the venerable Shure V-15 which BTW, I rather like. Its output is 3 mV peak at 5 cm/s peak groove velocity. Now back in the day Shure measured groove velocity on commercial records and the maximum was measured to be around 70 cm/s. The will mean a maximum theoretical output of 42 mV. Note that in real life the the stylus will be unable to actually track such groove modulations, but is not relevant to this analysis. So with 32 dB gain the output of the phono stage will be 42 X 40 =1.6 V (rounded of). No self respecting ADC is going to overload at this level; concerns about digital overload are unfounded.

In practice the LP is, at best, a 10-11 bit medium, more or less. Where’s the harm in applying digital gain if playback level is too low? Perhaps I’m missing something?
 
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