Integrating a turntable into a digital system

[al2002]

Clean your records.

That goes without saying. However, if you’ve ever bought old records you’ll know there are noises due to wear and tear - pops, ticks, thumps, etc. - that don’t go away with cleaning. Heck, I’ve bought new records that were so noisy that i thought they were pressed from recycled vinyl.

In general, a high quality phono stage needs to have good overload margins.

 

[al2002]

Yes, it is really important.

Just for reference,,,
As I recently wrote here on my project thread;
Before putting the LPs onto my audio rig, I carefully and rigorously washed them with aqueous (distilled water) diluted neutral pH kitchen detergent and a hard plastic brash; after complete drying-up, I further cleaned the LPs by actual 86-RPM trace with 3.5-gram stylus pressure using NUMARK PT01 portable TT for five times (see #965). Of course, each time I cleaned-up the PT01's cartridge stylus with a small fine brush and pure isopropyl alcohol. These are my “routine” cleaning procedures for old LPs as well as newly purchased LPs.

Running a record five times under a cheap stylus at 3.5 g tracking force is very unusual and likely to cause accelerated wear, don’t you think?

My favourite cleaning method is to use a peel off polyvinyl alcohol film mask.

 

[mike70]

That goes without saying. However, if you’ve ever bought old records you’ll know there are noises due to wear and tear - pops, ticks, thumps, etc. - that don’t go away with cleaning. Heck, I’ve bought new records that were so noisy that i thought they were pressed from recycled vinyl.

In general, a high quality phono stage needs to have good overload margins.

Not my experience with a good cleaning method.
I buy (more or less) 10 used records (VG+ graded) per mounth ... and it's always a great experience after cleaning ... generally without noises ... and many of them almost like CDs.

Brand new records i buy 10 per year (more or less) and after cleaning they sound like CDs.
My experience ... you can get it ... or throw it away.
My listening sessions will not change anyway

 

[al2002]

Not my experience with a good cleaning method.
I buy (more or less) 10 used records (VG+ graded) per mounth ... and it's always a great experience after cleaning ... generally without noises ... and many of them almost like CDs.

Brand new records i buy 10 per year (more or less) and after cleaning they sound like CDs.
My experience ... you can get it ... or throw it away.
My listening sessions will not change anyway

Well, I’ve not been so fortunate. Many of my old second hand records sound like old second hand records even after cleaning.
Typically I only buy used records if the music has not been reissued on CD or if the CD transfers are poorly done.

 

[mike70]

Well, I’ve not been so fortunate. Many of my old second hand records sound like old second hand records even after cleaning.
Typically I only buy used records if the music has not been reissued on CD or if the CD transfers are poorly done.

Buy a RCM ... the best money spent for vinyl I made. You have spectacular machines today at much less money than 10 years ago, for example the Humming Guru (cavitation) or the okki nokki (aspiration). We're talking about 500 USD ... not thousands.

The DIY method with something like Vinyl Vac 33 and home made fluid works very well ... but ... You need to enjoy the DIY.

 

[dualazmak]

Running a record five times under a cheap stylus at 3.5 g tracking force is very unusual and likely to cause accelerated wear, don’t you think?

No problem at all!

These cleaning procedures were personally suggested and recommended to me by two reliable engineers working at a famous LP production facility in Japan (they still continue LP production there).

It looks that the vinyl material and the music tracks on it are much more durable than we thought; of course we should be careful that the stylus tip of the NUMARK PT01 in 3.5 gram pressure is clean and not damaged. I always check it with my portable LED microscope!

 

[mike70]

Records are much more tough than many people think ... sometimes I listen to old urban legends as " everytime you play a record you lose high frequencies".
With proper care (records / stylus / turntable) records can sound as new for your entire life.

@dualazmak ... what microscope do you have?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

sometimes I listen to old urban legends as " everytime you play a record you lose high frequencies".

You do lose high frequencies. It's not an urban myth, but an engineering fact. I used to do turntable setup in recording studios using expensive line-up LPs. The highest frequency tracks wore out quite quickly and were even a couple of dB down after a handful of plays.

One reason why most people can't hear the degradation may be that the "high frequencies" they hear are closer to 7kHz than 20kHz.

 

[dualazmak]

@dualazmak ... what microscope do you have?

I have only one; BEHRINGER measurement microphone ECM8000.

 

[dualazmak]

One reason why most people can't hear the degradation may be that the "high frequencies" they hear are closer to 7kHz than 20kHz.

Yes, I partly agree with you.

I am sorry getting a little bit out of the scope of this thread and our present LP cleaning issue, but...

Very fortunately, I have considerably better hearing ability over the average ability of my age group; I periodically check my hearing ability using a free software audiometer with nice headphone. I well know and understand, however, my hearing ability in 7 kHz to 20 kHz (or ca.15 kHz?) is now a little bit inferior to average of younger people; by younger people, I mean people of age 40 or less.

Consequently, in case I invite those younger people to my audio listening sessions, they highly possibly feel that my best tuned high Fq response over 7 kHz (for my ears and brain) would be a little bit too high-gain for their ears. This means it should be better that if I could have flexible Fq response adjustments in my audio system especially in 7 kHz to 20 kHz Fq zone.

I have been intensively implementing flexible gain tuning functionalities which can be done "on-the-fly" (while listening to the music), very safely, flexibly, and smoothly (not step-wisely). From safety point of view, it is critical that such flexible relative gain tuning can be applied even while all of the DSP(XO/EQ/delay) "EKIO" parameters in upstream PC as well as preamp gains of DAC8PRO remain unchanged (they should stay "untouchable"). And, this is one of the major reasons I decided to use HiFi-grade "integrated amplifiers" in my multichannel multi-amplifier audio setup.

For further details, you would please refer to my specific post here on my project thread.

 

[mike70]

Degradation happens scientifically, nobody denies that.
Is debatable the grade / time to wear out ... that's different. There're many scientific studies about it ... and with a decently polished clean stylus and low VTF (as we use today, not in the 60s or before), even conicals, 50 plays shows very little to inaudible wear with an electronic microscope.

That's the "urban myth" we have since that old times with dirty bad polished conical styluses and 5 grams of VTF.
Now vinyl is a "nyche" and people spend 80-100 usd in a new stylus ... not in the older times with a 20 usd conical used for 10 years with dirty records.

So ... we can't compare the hobby now with the past ... we're talking with different use cases and general knowledge about the technology (even archaic, normally nobody cares about it), today most people knows more in how to care records / tts and have access to "cheap" gadgets to do it than never (ever) before.

Maybe is a good talk, vinyl "haters" generally talks about grandpa vinyl and many directly ignore some concepts deeply (not my intention talking about anyone specifically, it's in general). And it's ok ... i'm only posting my opinion. That's all.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Degradation happens scientifically, nobody denies that.
Is debatable the grade / time to wear out ... that's different. There're many scientific studies about it ... and with a decently polished clean stylus and low VTF (as we use today, not in the 60s or before), even conicals, 50 plays shows very little to inaudible wear with an electronic microscope.

That's the "urban myth" we have since that old times with dirty bad polished conical styluses and 5 grams of VTF.
Now vinyl is a "nyche" and people spend 80-100 usd in a new stylus ... not in the older times with a 20 usd conical used for 10 years with dirty records.

I'm talking about expensive line-up LPs that have RIAA equalised and unequalised frequency bands and sweeps that we played as sparingly as possible. These were played on expensive and well set-up (and tested regularly) turntables, arms and cartridges where styli were always inspected for wear and replaced frequently. Despite extremely careful use and not playing them any more than we could get away with, the frequencies above 10kHz degraded and drop off.

I'm sure that a well setup, proper VTA domestic turntable with an expensive stylus causes a great deal less wear than "your grandpa's" deck, but as soon as you play an LP you are slightly removing the higher frequencies.

I'm not a vinyl hater. Within about 10' of where I'm sitting are approximately 600 LPs. But I am an engineer and realistic about the genuine, measurable limitations of the LP creation and playback chain.

For more information, these are interesting:

Fun with vinyl measurements

I think Vinyl people in other forums do not want to know about turntable and cartridge measurements as they may get disappointed. I like accuracy and good design but that does not prevent me from listening to vinyl or measuring it. Measuring is a way to learn,understand and improve. Let us...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Phono Cartridge Response Measurement Script

This thread is intended to consolidate the technical discussion and further development of Scott Wurcer's frequency response measurement script to a central area. I'd like to keep this discussion about the tool rather than specific cartridges. I'll edit this and the subsequent reserved posts in...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[mike70]

But I am an engineer and realistic about the genuine, measurable limitations of the LP creation and playback chain.

I'm also an engineer ... and i have other studies that shows no fatal degradation in certain circunstances. That's all, move on.

 

[morillon]

there are plenty of "if" that can play a little on the wear...
but there is one case that clearly is...
but here we are in an almost cultural approach..
this is the case of high modulation rates.
(just observe what happens with discs called "torture" test discs...)
but that, if the technicians have worked well .. in many types of music this crosses little ..
if in "classic" the needs can cross strong gap etc..
in jazz rock variety music etc there are really few reasons to be confronted with it...

but, because joins the aspect noise-silence etc and other very factual points..
agrees with the fact that culturally the survival of vinyl has been essentially in certain areas...(often not purely "acoustic")
;-)

 

[Oristo]

Supposing that you already have a PC and decide to RIP the LP soon, before it deteriorates with play, then USB works.
Many PCs have S/PDIF, but USB->TOSlink are cheap.

 

[al2002]

Buy a RCM ... the best money spent for vinyl I made. You have spectacular machines today at much less money than 10 years ago, for example the Humming Guru (cavitation) or the okki nokki (aspiration). We're talking about 500 USD ... not thousands.

The DIY method with something like Vinyl Vac 33 and home made fluid works very well ... but ... You need to enjoy the DIY.

Have had an RCM - keith monks- since the early 80s. The peel off mask works better. The pops and clicks I’m talking about are due to wear. The ‘cure’ for such records is something like a SugarCube, but that is an altogether different topic.

i fear we are straying from the original topic.

 

[al2002]

Degradation happens scientifically, nobody denies that.
Is debatable the grade / time to wear out ... that's different. There're many scientific studies about it ... and with a decently polished clean stylus and low VTF (as we use today, not in the 60s or before), even conicals, 50 plays shows very little to inaudible wear with an electronic microscope.

That's the "urban myth" we have since that old times with dirty bad polished conical styluses and 5 grams of VTF.
Now vinyl is a "nyche" and people spend 80-100 usd in a new stylus ... not in the older times with a 20 usd conical used for 10 years with dirty records.

So ... we can't compare the hobby now with the past ... we're talking with different use cases and general knowledge about the technology (even archaic, normally nobody cares about it), today most people knows more in how to care records / tts and have access to "cheap" gadgets to do it than never (ever) before.

Maybe is a good talk, vinyl "haters" generally talks about grandpa vinyl and many directly ignore some concepts deeply (not my intention talking about anyone specifically, it's in general). And it's ok ... i'm only posting my opinion. That's all.

Can you provide references to these new studies on record wear? The few I’ve seen in the AES Journal show clear wear.

Records do wear out. Not an urban myth. I’ve had a good table/arm/system with low tracking force, high trackibility cartridges for over half a century and followed a near obsessive cleaning regime. Many of my 50+ year old records, bought new, exhibit wear.

Not a vinyl hater either, have 1000s of LPs. However, CD is a better medium in every way.

 

[al2002]

I'm also an engineer ... and i have other studies that shows no fatal degradation in certain circunstances. That's all, move on.

Please post references, I’m curious to see these.

 

[al2002]

I have only one; BEHRINGER measurement microphone ECM8000.
View attachment 278968

Microscope, not microphone.

 

[dualazmak]

Microscope, not microphone.

Oh, sorry for my mistake!

I have several microscopes, and this one is nice for TT stylus check.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LAX52IQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1
Carson MicroBrite Plus 60x-120x LED Lighted Pocket Microscope (MM-300)