Integrating a miniDSP into the setup

[90sNintendoKid]

I agree with what's been said above, I've recently stopped chasing SINAD and bought a Denon 3800H and Dirac ART and I'm delighted with the results.

I use external amplification with the 3800H.

I recommend you try OCA's A1 Evo Acoustix before spending money on new gear.

I'm not sure I agree with using specific equipment for 2 channel versus your current 6400H. I may setup a dedicated 2 channel system in a separate room to my home cinema and I'm going to go for another 3800H and 4 subwoofers (2 SVS SB1000 and 2 SVS 3000 Micros, I think these will be fine for music and they are what I currently use in my little home cinema that could) and Dirac ART.

 

[mglobe]

I agree with what's been said above, I've recently stopped chasing SINAD and bought a Denon 3800H and Dirac ART and I'm delighted with the results.

I use external amplification with the 3800H.

I recommend you try OCA's A1 Evo Acoustix before spending money on new gear.

I'm not sure I agree with using specific equipment for 2 channel versus your current 6400H. I may setup a dedicated 2 channel system in a separate room to my home cinema and I'm going to go for another 3800H and 4 subwoofers (2 SVS SB1000 and 2 SVS 3000 Micros, I think these will be fine for music and they are what I currently use in my little home cinema that could) and Dirac ART.

I had been waiting for ART since it was first announced, finally became disenchanted by the wait, and purchased a Trinnov NOVA in July. So y’all can thank me for ART finally being ready for prime time.

 

[FrantzM]

It’s great to see excellent SINAD numbers on products, but I find myself more interested in what electronic products can do, how flexible they are, what inputs and outputs they have, how you interact with them, price, aesthetics,…

A bit off-topics:

We are at a stage where electronics are better than what we, humans, are able to perceive: DAC, Amplifiers are essentially perfect. Taking into account that, 80 dB of SINAD is all we need from a chain, Amplifiers + DAC + even DRC chains are able to maintain that 80 dB and that at commodity prices. e.g. A Denon X-3800, has a 87 dB of SINAD, about (linear) 5 times better than our , arbitrary baseline of 80 dB .. and again comparing that to our LP chain, the one so revered by audiophiles with six digits systems, the Denon X-3800 is 50 times better !! Yep!

Throw in Audyssey (Free) or MultEQ-X ($300-ish), DIRAC Art (How much??) or @OCA scripts (Free.) you have a powerful hub with the potential potential to linearize and adapt those speakers, if they are any good (or not in some cases) to your room ... All this at commodity-level prices.. Yep!, most of the AVRs on the market are butt-ugly, front and rear .. not convenient .. Best to reside in an enclosed, preferably ventilated cabinet..The aesthetic appeal is entirely irrelevant to me.. The things that will remain visible for most audiophiles are the speakers. This is the next bridge, I, need to cross. My room is dedicated but concrete and it is dawning on me, that soffit mounting could be the next step in the evolution of my system but I cannot get out of the mentality of "pulling the speakers off the wall", mine are about 1.2 meters from the front wall... SBIR is minimized but soffit seems to eliminate SBIR...

For an audiophile who cannot afford the better AVPs on the market: In alphabetical order, Lyngdorf, MonoPrice, Storm Audio or Trinnov, then an AVR should be the heart of your system. I tend to believe that here is more software ( Audyssey, Dirac. OCA Scripts, etc) available for Denon/Marantz than for any other other brands [Plug in your favorite].. Present day AVRs from any brand, all look the same (ugly), with a physical and software interfaces (Bad and ugly) only a software or an audiophile geek could love, but the level of functionality is extraordinary, unknown, neglected and underappreciated.

 

[jmdesignz2]

I stopped chasing after SINAD when I realized that 80 dB of SINAD is sufficient for faithful. and, healthy (as in not turning your eardrums to mush) reproduction in the home... For perspective the LP, yes Vinyl, that format so revered by subjectivist audiophiles, barely hit 50 dB. I hasten to say that the theoretical SINAD for LP would be 70 dB... although the great majority of LP system hover around 30 dB...
So the >80 dB provided by any Denon AVR, with Preamp outputs, is largely sufficient for the vast majority of recordings out there. I can safely advance that there exist no commercially available recordings with 70 dB of dynamic range...

that's your perogative to be satisfied with limited dynamic range/noisey system but don't spread disinformation:

If you play a Mahler symphony recorded at 24-bit resolution, the difference between the digital black silence / or the venue's noise floor and the loudest peak often exceeds 70 dB. If your equipment only has 80 dB of range, you are dangerously close to the noise floor intruding on the quietest passages. A live symphony orchestra has a natural dynamic range of roughly 100–108 dB.
For example - rustle of a page turn to a full tutti crescendo. Audiophile labels like Telarc, BIS, Reference Recordings capture this with minimal compression. Even standard 16-bit CDs are capable of 96 dB and utilize the full bit depth to capture the silence of the hall vs. the peak of a timpani strike.

Then some will say one can't "hear" the difference due to hearing compression however that totally dismisses the physical sensations of the room pressurizing, velocity of hearing compression which communicates a more real experience.

 

[FrantzM]

that's your perogative to be satisfied with limited dynamic range/noisey system but don't spread disinformation:

If you play a Mahler symphony recorded at 24-bit resolution, the difference between the digital black silence / or the venue's noise floor and the loudest peak often exceeds 70 dB. If your equipment only has 80 dB of range, you are dangerously close to the noise floor intruding on the quietest passages. A live symphony orchestra has a natural dynamic range of roughly 100–108 dB.
For example - rustle of a page turn to a full tutti crescendo. Audiophile labels like Telarc, BIS, Reference Recordings capture this with minimal compression. Even standard 16-bit CDs are capable of 96 dB and utilize the full bit depth to capture the silence of the hall vs. the peak of a timpani strike.

Then some will say one can't "hear" the difference due to hearing compression however that totally dismisses the physical sensations of the room pressurizing, velocity of hearing compression which communicates a more real experience.

It is indeed my prerogative but ... Let's try your points:
It is not misinformation. Rather pragmatism.
So you believe, you can recreate a live symphony dynamic swing in your listening room? Or God forbid with headphones? and live the day with your hearing intact ?
Let's take a system with speakers:
Assuming a noise floor of 20 dB (exceptional but you may, if living in a remote area, with a correctly insulated listening room , achieve that magical 20 dB of noise floor.
So you need to clear that level, for the sake of argument we will assume no HVAC.
You need the lowest level to clear out the room noise floor so that you can hear that rustling of the page , you need to play a bit louder than 20 dB of SPL at the listening position, say 23 dB of SPL ..lowest...
Then you want to go to that 108 dB dynamic wing, you would reach a bit over 131 dB at the listening position...
Healthy? Hardly.
And what monitor will be able to belch out 131 dB? Not that many... And how many watts would be necessary?

So ... barely feasible , there could be some outlier cases, very few TBH, and it would still not be recommended...

Now let's tackle the issue of a 70 dB recordings . I would appreciate if you could provide us links to some commercial recordings that provide such superlative and highly unusual dynamic range..
This said, 70 dB of dynamic will be easily reproduced by an audio chain with 80 dB, with, pun intended, room to spare (10 dB! which in term of power is a lot )

If you can get higher SINAD , that is fine but anything over 80 dB is cherry on top, 80 dB is sufficient.

as for this :

Then some will say one can't "hear" the difference due to hearing compression however that totally dismisses the physical sensations of the room pressurizing, velocity of hearing compression which communicates a more real experience.

I plead the fifth, because I don't understand what you are talking about. Especially that "velocity of hearing compression" part. Could you please educate us ?

 

[jaik]

I tried integrating the Denon into the stereo chain ie., connected the digital transport to the Denon instead of the DAC and noticed it's no where close to playing via the DAC. I'm not technical, so not good with numbers, so my thoughts below are based on my ears, with every other parameter staying constant -
1. First of all the stereo imaging shifted to one corner. Via the DAC it always was centered perfectly.
2. The 3D imaging did not exist anymore.
3. Stereo panning was worse.
4. Lacked crispness and a sounded a little muddy (marginal but still). When heard via the DAC, the vocals etc were crisp which weren't as good with the Denon.

Summary: No way I'm going to integrate Denon into my stereo chain, however, I managed to utilise the 2 inputs sources (XLR and RCA) on the DB1D and the subwoofer app which will allow me to connect the DAC as I did now to the sub, sending a full range signal, but then on the app, set the low pass filter and avoid buying a miniDSP.

Thanks all for your feedback.

 

[FrantzM]

I tried integrating the Denon into the stereo chain ie., connected the digital transport to the Denon instead of the DAC and noticed it's no where close to playing via the DAC. I'm not technical, so not good with numbers, so my thoughts below are based on my ears, with every other parameter staying constant -
1. First of all the stereo imaging shifted to one corner. Via the DAC it always was centered perfectly.
2. The 3D imaging did not exist anymore.
3. Stereo panning was worse.
4. Lacked crispness and a sounded a little muddy (marginal but still). When heard via the DAC, the vocals etc were crisp which weren't as good with the Denon.

Summary: No way I'm going to integrate Denon into my stereo chain, however, I managed to utilise the 2 inputs sources (XLR and RCA) on the DB1D and the subwoofer app which will allow me to connect the DAC as I did now to the sub, sending a full range signal, but then on the app, set the low pass filter and avoid buying a miniDSP.

Thanks all for your feedback.

ok

 

[jmdesignz2]

It is indeed my prerogative but ... Let's try your points:
It is not misinformation. Rather pragmatism.
So you believe, you can recreate a live symphony dynamic swing in your listening room? Or God forbid with headphones? and live the day with your hearing intact ?
Let's take a system with speakers:
Assuming a noise floor of 20 dB (exceptional but you may, if living in a remote area, with a correctly insulated listening room , achieve that magical 20 dB of noise floor.
So you need to clear that level, for the sake of argument we will assume no HVAC.
You need the lowest level to clear out the room noise floor so that you can hear that rustling of the page , you need to play a bit louder than 20 dB of SPL at the listening position, say 23 dB of SPL ..lowest...
Then you want to go to that 108 dB dynamic wing, you would reach a bit over 131 dB at the listening position...
Healthy? Hardly.
And what monitor will be able to belch out 131 dB? Not that many... And how many watts would be necessary?

So ... barely feasible , there could be some outlier cases, very few TBH, and it would still not be recommended...

Now let's tackle the issue of a 70 dB recordings . I would appreciate if you could provide us links to some commercial recordings that provide such superlative and highly unusual dynamic range..
This said, 70 dB of dynamic will be easily reproduced by an audio chain with 80 dB, with, pun intended, room to spare (10 dB! which in term of power is a lot )

If you can get higher SINAD , that is fine but anything over 80 dB is cherry on top, 80 dB is sufficient.

as for this :


I plead the fifth, because I don't understand what you are talking about. Especially that "velocity of hearing compression" part. Could you please educate us ?

have you been to any live orchestra recently with timpani? If so what performance and where did you sit?

 

[dmilller]

Yes, Denon DAC will do the conversion. Both DACs (Denon and Benchmark) are transparent ie. you won't hear the difference, but the benefit of using AVR for both surround and stereo is convinience and Dirac for both which will make more difference than any DAC could.
....

The DAC in my Denon 3600 is terrible. I can't tell the difference between my other DACs. Like many people I find using an AVR for the top/back channels works well.

 

[Chagall]

The DAC in my Denon 3600 is terrible. I can't tell the difference between my other DACs. Like many people I find using an AVR for the top/back channels works well.

If you feel that separating stereo and surround systems (DACs, amps, room correction, subwoofer integration and/or speakers) is worthwhile, then by all means.

On the other hand, I personally don’t feel I’m losing any fidelity using my AVR (Onkyo RZ-70) for both movies and music, while gaining practicality, simplicity, and saving on cost.

 

[dmilller]

If you feel that separating stereo and surround systems (DACs, amps, room correction, subwoofer integration and/or speakers) is worthwhile, then by all means.

On the other hand, I personally don’t feel I’m losing any fidelity using my AVR (Onkyo RZ-70) for both movies and music, while gaining practicality, simplicity, and saving on cost.

I'm fine with feeding the Denon 3600 analog from an external DAC. It's just the internal DAC I find unacceptable, which could be an issue with my specific unit.

 

[Chagall]

I'm fine with feeding the Denon 3600 analog from an external DAC. It's just the internal DAC I find unacceptable, which could be an issue with my specific unit.

Oh, I see... I thought you were talking about fully separating stereo and surround systems.

That said, when playing surround formats, AVR must decode and convert all channels internally. Point being - if there were an issue with the internal DAC, wouldn't it also be present during multichannel playback? If so, why would the internal DAC be unacceptable for stereo but fine for multichannel?