Integrating a miniDSP into the setup

[jaik]

Hello all,

Please feel free to shoot me if this post is not meant to be here, only my second post, so won't be offended at all .

Now, I have the following kit which I intend to use for both listening in stereo & movies in surround sound.

Speakers: B&W 702 S3 Fronts
B&W 705 S3 Surrounds
Subwoofer: B&W DB1D
AVR: Denon X6400H
DAC: Benchmark DAC3 HGC
Amp: Benchmark AHB2
Turntable: Rega P8

Now for 2 channel listening, I use the DAC as the preamp to which all my digital & analog inputs are connected and I use the XLR outputs to get the analog signal out to the AHB2.
At the moment, I hooked up the DB1D sub to the DAC with the two RCA outs on the DAC, however, since there is no bass management on the DAC, the sub is receiving a full signal similar to the fronts which makes the bass sound muddy.

Also, since I want the Denon to pass the LFE during movies, I'll have to unplug one of the RCA cables from the DAC and connect it to the Denon's LFE out when playing movies, which I would like to avoid if possible.

I've learnt that integrating a miniDSP into the setup should allow me to integrate the subwoofer into the 2 channel listening scenario. This is where my confusion starts.
Assuming integrating a miniDSP is the way to go (but please shout if there's other ways particularly if I can get it from my already existing gear), I have looked at miniDSP SHD Studio, Flex & the full Studio versions and below are my thoughts -

SHD Studio - this has only digital I/O - I can switch to the Studio as the preamp and connect all my digital inputs to it, instead of my DAC, happy days, but it doesn't have analog inputs for my turntable.

SHD Flex - this has digital I/O & analog inputs - which I think is the one that suits my requirement because I can connect all my digital and analog inputs. I connect it before the DAC so that D/A conversion only happens in my Benchmark DAC which is my preferred option, however, since this doesn't have any analog outputs, I may have to add another DAC to take the digital signal from let's say channel 3&4 and send it to this new DAC which will inturn be connected to my subwoofer. If you agree with this, please suggest a good DAC that has XLR outputs because the RCA inputs on the subwoofer will be connected to the Denon which only leaves XLR inputs on the sub available for use.

SHD Full version - this has a plethora of I/O, however, I feel that it's overkill or not suitable for my scenario. For eg: I don't need the XLR inputs or outputs since I'm not planning to use the DAC component in the SHD which means this needs to be before my DAC (so similar to the Flex, all my digital& analog (via RCA) inputs will be connected to it and I plan to take the digital signal out from the SHD and into the Benchmark DAC. So, unless the SHD can output both a digital signal (forthe Benchmark DAC) and an analog signal (for the subwoofer without an additional DAC) at the same time, this doesn't seem to fit my purpose.

Please can you evaluate the above and let me know if there is an alternate option or if there is a preferred option from the above. I mean for eg: instead of going for a Flex and a separate DAC for the sub, I could go with the Full version if the cost at the end is the same since it prevents more components to be added and even perhaps comes with a DIRAC licence which I presume the FLEX wouldn't come with (can always upgrade though).

Also, is there anything I could be missing out if going for a relatively cheaper option like the Flex for example in terms of the quality of processing etc?

Thanks,
Jay

 

[Mort]

You might need a diagram. I'm not clear what you are trying to do.

Generally the mini DSP unit would replace that DAC

 

[Chagall]

I think this is a complete overkill. Use AVR as your source selector, volume control and room management for both stereo and surround. Benchmark DAC could be a source also, but Denon has enough digital inputs so I don't see the point.

 

[jaik]

Sorry @Mort - So, below is the diagram and the wiring at the moment.

Thanks @Chagall , so the reason I connected all my digital sources to the DAC was because I wanted to avoid any DA conversion on the Denon since it's not as good as the DAC3. So, if I follow your proposal there and connect the DAC to the Denon, will the Denon NOT do any processing, let it be AD or DA (or both) if I choose 'Pure' option on the Denon? Now, I'm assuming you are asking me to select this 'Pure' option on the Denon for the Denon to send the source signal as is.

 

[mglobe]

I enjoy pure stereo and have a music only setup for that, so I understand that concept as a driver for you. And I like the MiniDSP equipment a lot. But… given the setup you have, the best way to improve your system would be to buy one of the Denon AVR’s that has Dirac ART.

 

[Chagall]

Sorry @Mort - So, below is the diagram and the wiring at the moment.

View attachment 497933

Thanks @Chagall , so the reason I connected all my digital sources to the DAC was because I wanted to avoid any DA conversion on the Denon since it's not as good as the DAC3. So, if I follow your proposal there and connect the DAC to the Denon, will the Denon NOT do any processing, let it be AD or DA (or both) if I choose 'Pure' option on the Denon? Now, I'm assuming you are asking me to select this 'Pure' option on the Denon for the Denon to send the source signal as is.

Yes, Denon DAC will do the conversion. Both DACs (Denon and Benchmark) are transparent ie. you won't hear the difference, but the benefit of using AVR for both surround and stereo is convinience and Dirac for both which will make more difference than any DAC could.

Also, in your diagram what is the Benchmark DAC doing if it is receiving analog front preouts?

AFAIK you can't run in Pure mode as that will disable LFE crossover and Dirac.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

The sobering reality is that the Denon AVR will sound the same as the Benchmark in 95% (Made-up percentage) of the situations.
I'd suggest this instead and you will likely not miss a bit:

You can always add the Benchmark amplifier in the path to the Front speakers ... If the Denon amplifers are not enough , although I doubt that to ever manifest...

or you can do without the miniDSP 2x4 HD and use @OCA scripts for , IMHO, superb results.

 

[Chagall]

Hi

The sobering reality is that the Denon AVR will sound the same as the Benchmark in 95% (Made-up percentage) of the situations.
I'd suggest this instead and you willlikely not miss a bit:

View attachment 497938

You can always add the Benchmark amplifier in the path to the Front speakers ... If the Denon amplifers are not enough , although I doubt that to ever manifest...

or you can do without the miniDSP 2x4 HD and use @OCA scripts for , IMHO, superb results.

Exactly! But I would only use minidsp if there are multiple subs.

 

[Mort]

I would consider a bobwire rca1. Split it into two systems with an auto switching and sensing box.

 

[MEGB1262]

Hi there,

as far as i can see, the only clean way to take advantage of your "better" sound for the stereo setup is to switch the signal between the main stereo speakers behind the AVR / Stereo Amp and the input of the subwoofer

for your stereo setup the signal path would not use the AVR anymore at all

hope it helps, Stefano

P.S.:
the quality of the Stereo Amp Speaker Out / AVR Main Speaker Out to stereo main speaker switch may be the problem, i do not know any commercial product that is good for your case, many people would consider to go DIY for this

before you go this path you can take your time and make listening tests of the no AVR stereo setup in order to decide whether the effort is worthwhile at all

found one suggestion here

Order Fosi Audio LC30 Amplifier Speaker Switcher 2-In-2 Out

Buy the LC30-Orange online at SoundImports ✓ Same day shipping ✓ Low shipping rates

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[Keith_W]

The question is: why do you want a MiniDSP? If your answer is "I want better DSP" or "I want more control over my DSP", then I would say it's worth pursuing. Although bear in mind that the MiniDSP's only advantage over the Denon is marginally better DSP chips which maybe give you a couple more biquads and a very low tap count FIR filter. The other advantage is that you can do manual corrections - so if you don't like what software has done, you can DIY. I believe that the Denon locks you out from these controls. If all you plan to simply push a button and let some software make decisions for you, I would stick with the Denon.

 

[DoctorRobert]

I have been using the OCA Evo Acoustix script, which should also work with the x6400, with to my ears good results. It gives you the option of Audyssey-like one-button calibration and some more advanced settings, like target curves, via the control panel. Very much recommended, especially because it is free. If it does not get you the desired results, you can always start spending money on other options.

Edit: Search for 'OCA Acoustix' on Youtube for an explanatory video and the download links to the tools.

 

[jaik]

I wasn't using my Denon (until now) in my stereo chain for two reasons -
1. I didn't want a double conversion, once from the Benchmark DAC and another by the Denon. &
2. More components in the chain means more chances for noise and given that the Denon does a lot more than just the DAC bit, I always wanted to keep it out of stereo mode.

The reason I'm looking for a DSP primarily was to integrate the subwoofer into my 2 channel setup. The Denon does a good job for the movies already, so no issues with that.

So, from what you all have suggested, the first thing that jumps to me is to integrate the Denon into the stereo chain and see if I would still like the sound. This option then would integrate the sub into the stereo chain automatically.

Thanks all for your inputs. I'll try this option out.

 

[jmdesignz2]

Sorry @Mort - So, below is the diagram and the wiring at the moment.

View attachment 497933

Thanks @Chagall , so the reason I connected all my digital sources to the DAC was because I wanted to avoid any DA conversion on the Denon since it's not as good as the DAC3. So, if I follow your proposal there and connect the DAC to the Denon, will the Denon NOT do any processing, let it be AD or DA (or both) if I choose 'Pure' option on the Denon? Now, I'm assuming you are asking me to select this 'Pure' option on the Denon for the Denon to send the source signal as is.

Nice! What are you using to make this diagram?

 

[jaik]

Yes, Denon DAC will do the conversion. Both DACs (Denon and Benchmark) are transparent ie. you won't hear the difference, but the benefit of using AVR for both surround and stereo is convinience and Dirac for both which will make more difference than any DAC could.

Also, in your diagram what is the Benchmark DAC doing if it is receiving analog front preouts?

AFAIK you can't run in Pure mode as that will disable LFE crossover and Dirac.

Unfortunately, my version of the Denon doesn't support DIRAC. It's only I think 2 versions later from mine that are supported. But I will still integrate the Denon into the stereo chain and see if Audyssey does a good job for 2 channel listening too.

Benchmark DAC takes input from all my digital sources and turntable. It's the Denon's front preouts that are connected to Benchmark DAC. I use this option to put the DAC in HT by pass mode and use the Denon as the controller for the front speakers during movies.

 

[Chagall]

Unfortunately, my version of the Denon doesn't support DIRAC. It's only I think 2 versions later from mine that are supported. But I will still integrate the Denon into the stereo chain and see if Audyssey does a good job for 2 channel listening too.

Benchmark DAC takes input from all my digital sources and turntable. It's the Denon's front preouts that are connected to Benchmark DAC. I use this option to put the DAC in HT by pass mode and use the Denon as the controller for the front speakers during movies.

Yes, you are correct - Audyssey then.

Try incorporating AVR, you can use your power amp for the main speakers using AVRs preouts.
You can also test Denon onboard DAC vs Benchmark DAC, but this needs to be a blind test, so I wouldn't bother at this point.

 

[jaik]

Nice! What are you using to make this diagram?

MS Powerpoint

 

[jmdesignz2]

I wasn't using my Denon (until now) in my stereo chain for two reasons -
1. I didn't want a double conversion, once from the Benchmark DAC and another by the Denon. &
2. More components in the chain means more chances for noise and given that the Denon does a lot more than just the DAC bit, I always wanted to keep it out of stereo mode.

The reason I'm looking for a DSP primarily was to integrate the subwoofer into my 2 channel setup. The Denon does a good job for the movies already, so no issues with that.

So, from what you all have suggested, the first thing that jumps to me is to integrate the Denon into the stereo chain and see if I would still like the sound. This option then would integrate the sub into the stereo chain automatically.

Thanks all for your inputs. I'll try this option out.

Pretty sure nearly every Denon AVR measurement system be seen seems to have low SINAD compared to even a budget Fosi ZD3 DAC. Another reason I have a dedicated 2 channel system that doesn’t use my Denon AVR

 

[FrantzM]

Pretty sure nearly every Denon AVR measurement system be seen seems to have low SINAD compared to even a budget Fosi ZD3 DAC. Another reason I have a dedicated 2 channel system that doesn’t use my Denon AVR

I stopped chasing after SINAD when I realized that 80 dB of SINAD is sufficient for faithful. and, healthy (as in not turning your eardrums to mush) reproduction in the home... For perspective the LP, yes Vinyl, that format so revered by subjectivist audiophiles, barely hit 50 dB. I hasten to say that the theoretical SINAD for LP would be 70 dB... although the great majority of LP system hover around 30 dB...
So the >80 dB provided by any Denon AVR, with Preamp outputs, is largely sufficient for the vast majority of recordings out there. I can safely advance that there exist no commercially available recordings with 70 dB of dynamic range...
This in turn, had me realize how underestimated and understood, the mid to upper tier, AVRs, are... in my book anything from the Denon AVR-X3800 and above.. Those can run DIRAC ART, Audyssey and the free @OCA scripts. Those DRC (DIRAC , Audyssey) and OCAscripts are more transformative than anything I have experienced in my 50 years + of being an audiophile.
In short: Let the AVR, the 6400 be the center of your system. no miniDSP or Benchmark anything, needed. For the price of these get the Full Dirac Suite or for less, the Audyssey multEQ-X Application for Windows or .. IME, for free, yes as in ZERO, the @OCA scripts and be prepared to be shocked by how good those scripts can make your system sound, even with multiple subwoofers. I am presently using 2 . Evo Acoustica and above scripts, can handle however many subwoofers the AVR can...

 

[mglobe]

I stopped chasing after SINAD when I realized that 80 dB of SINAD is sufficient for faithful. and, healthy (as in not turning your eardrums to mush) reproduction in the home... For perspective the LP, yes Vinyl, that format so revered by subjectivist audiophiles, barely hit 50 dB. I hasten to say that the theoretical SINAD for LP would be 70 dB... although the great majority of LP system hover around 30 dB...
So the >80 dB provided by any Denon AVR, with Preamp outputs, is largely sufficient for the vast majority of recordings out there. I can safely advance that there exist no commercially available recordings with 70 dB of dynamic range...
This in turn, had me realize how underestimated and understood, the mid to upper tier, AVRs, are... in my book anything from the Denon AVR-X3800 and above.. Those can run DIRAC ART, Audyssey and the free @OCA scripts. Those DRC (DIRAC , Audyssey) and OCAscripts are more transformative than anything I have experienced in my 50 years + of being an audiophile.
In short: Let the AVR, the 6400 be the center of your system. no miniDSP or Benchmark anything, needed. For the price of these get the Full Dirac Suite or for less, the Audyssey multEQ-X Application for Windows or .. IME, for free, yes as in ZERO, the @OCA scripts and be prepared to be shocked by how good those scripts can make your system sound, even with multiple subwoofers. I am presently using 2 . Evo Acoustica and above scripts, can handle however many subwoofers the AVR can...

It’s great to see excellent SINAD numbers on products, but I find myself more interested in what electronic products can do, how flexible they are, what inputs and outputs they have, how you interact with them, price, aesthetics,…