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Integrated Quad Plate Measurement

A

Alexx

Senior Member
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Jan 26, 2022
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Hello everyone.

I've had the new Quad Platina integrated amplifier for about two months, but I'm not very happy with it.

The amplifier is weak!!! The volume goes from 78 dB to 0 dB.

Up to about 40 dB, it sounds very quiet; to get any punch, I need to go to at least 20-25 dB (0 dB is the maximum). Amazingly, I even managed to push it to maximum volume without any distortion, something that never happened with any previous amplifiers.

The other brands I've owned (Nad 399 - Rega Elicti MK5 - Arcam A25 - Rotel 1592MKII, etc.) were already horrendous at 10 o'clock.

I'm wondering if you know of any technical measurements regarding the power output of this Quad Platina. I can only find manufacturer data online.

I've always read in reviews that it has a frightening amount of power, a large toroidal transformer, a 20-amp reserve, etc., but in practice it seems to deliver less than an 85-watt-per-channel Rega...

I use it with a Wi-Fi Ultra source on the RCA output with the Quad gain set to +6dB (optical and coaxial cables sound even quieter, since they can't increase the input sensitivity).

Monitor Audio Studio 89 speakers. I know they have low sensitivity, but for an amplifier like the Quad, that shouldn't be a problem. Furthermore, when used with much less powerful amplifiers, like Rega, Arcam, Nad, etc., they worked just fine.

I'm starting to suspect that the manufacturer's specifications aren't reliable. Why does it have to play so quietly, and to get a decent boost, I have to use it at over 80-85% of the volume, almost at maximum?

The dealer replaced it out of concern, but the other one behaves the same way.

Thanks for your help.
 
200W into 8ohm should be enough for most rooms.
I suspect what it is, is the 'mapping' for the volume dial - i.e. the volume is not done using pots or switched resistors, but the dial sends pulses as it spins round, and software bumps the volume up or down a certain amount for each pulse (I may be wrong). It's the same on my Cambridge Evo, which I am fond of - I think at some volume levels, the change is in 1dB steps, an 0.5dB steps at others; i.e. it's not about the physical position of the dial! Several owners lobbied Cambridge Audio for a software tweak, to bump volume up faster from low volume, but it was never implemented, like with other missing features (it's now a dead product from s/w point of view).. If I'm right, and if there is an owner's forum, try lobbying for a "remap" of the volume control - it is not however a fault, but a "UI oddity".
 
If the amp isn't even clipping at full volume, it's clearly not power-limited. This is almost certainly a gain / sensitivity mismatch problem.
  • What are your settings?
  • Volume and output voltage selection on the Wiim?
  • Any volume limits in place on the Wiim?
  • What is the peak digital level of the source material?
 
Do you have any test equipment to check input and output levels? A multimeter would do.
 
Thanks for the replies.

@Redacted
It's probably exactly as you say. I also contacted the distributor, and they sent me an update, but it was only for the HDMI input because it was too weak compared to all the others. After the HDMI update, it's leveled out like all the other inputs.

@RandomEar
Qaud settings: Aux input + 6dB
Wimm with fixed volume, maximum output voltage (I think it's 2V)
There's no volume limit on the Wiim; since it's set to a fixed output of 100%, I don't think any limits are activated (I don't know if there's a submenu to check).
Last question, I can't answer. Perhaps you mean the Qaud range? It starts from 78dB to 0dB.
On digital inputs, it sounds softer because I can't increase the gain like I can on analog inputs.


@somebodyelse
Yes, I have a multimeter (tester). How should I set it and what procedure should I follow for the measurements?

Thank you very much.
 
Alexx said:
@RandomEar
Qaud settings: Aux input + 6dB
Wimm with fixed volume, maximum output voltage (I think it's 2V)
Click to expand...
Yes, should be 2 V. I would double-check that this is selected.

Alexx said:
There's no volume limit on the Wiim; since it's set to a fixed output of 100%, I don't think any limits are activated (I don't know if there's a submenu to check).
Click to expand...
OK. As far as I know, you can select a "safety cap" for the volume, but that's probably only possible if the output is set to variable volume.

Alexx said:
Last question, I can't answer. Perhaps you mean the Qaud range? It starts from 78dB to 0dB.
On digital inputs, it sounds softer because I can't increase the gain like I can on analog inputs.
Click to expand...
No, the source material. The music you are streaming. It's unlikely, but just to be sure you could check if it is mastered correctly to peak at near 0 dB or if there is some fuckery going on.

Also, the Quad probably starts at -78 dB, right? Small difference, but important for your ears ;) In any case, the fact that the digital inputs on the Quad itself are even lower in level suggests that there is something up with either the streaming source or some setting on the Quad. It seems odd that a manufacturer would design their amp in a way where it's own integrated DAC could never push it to full volume.
 
RandomEar said:
OK. As far as I know, you can select a "safety cap" for the volume, but that's probably only possible if the output is set to variable volume.
Click to expand...
It applies to fixed volume as well, mainly used to provide headroom for DSP.

You can also apply gain or cut to each wiim input.

Do you have any other source you could try, other than the wiim?

If you don't have a complicated setup on the wiim it might be worth trying a factory reset, I remember someone had a problem that sounded the opposite of this they couldn't fix before a reset fixed it.
 
Where is the mucic coming from? Streaming, local FLACs or what?
If streaming, most platforms issue pretty 'low volume' files, doctored to not come close to overloading a DAC, plus usually normalized.
If you are able to play a CD through the unit, try that. If you rip a CD to a FLAC, try that off a memory stick or from PC over the LAN (do not add ReplayGain though). Point is, we're trying to eliminate quiet sources by way of comparison.
I'd pretty sure that by default the Wiim itself perfectly loud enough via its line-level RCAs.
 
Thanks so much for the suggestions.

I use the Wiim with Tidal. I've also tried other sources, such as TV - HDMI (LG 65" TV, Blu-ray, and Apple Music). The same thing happens with every source. I'll get the CD player in about 10 days, so I'll try that too.

What I don't understand is that with a less powerful amplifier, the same source, and the same speakers, the result was decidedly superior.

I could try using the Quad as a power amplifier (I don't know if that's possible, I'll have to see the manual) and use the Wiim as a preamp. It's just a test; it wouldn't make sense to spend €3,000 on the Quad and then use it as a power amplifier.

Do you think this lack of power at medium-low volumes would penalize the quality of the output? That is, with such a weak signal, could I lose detail, dynamics, etc.?

Is the fact that it doesn't distort at maximum volume a strength or weakness?

Certainly, if I turn it down to 10 dB, you'll start to notice the boost.

Thank you very much.
 
To drive the max wattage out of the amp, the source data has to be able to emerge from the DAC & pre-stages with the full voltage swing that the power amp can take. The power amp part of your Quad just adds a fixed amount of gain from its input to its output... Similarly with the pre-amp stage in the Quad (the volume knob limits its output). Unless the Wiim Streamer/DAC or whatever it is actually faulty, or has an incorrect setting, it should have plenty of volts to drive the preamp of the Quad. So what are we left with? Either your sources are quiet for some reason, so that you are nowhere near the full range of the DAC' output, or it as I said, in that you simply have to spin the volume knob a lot to get decent volume, like with my unit. The question I have is, at what volume knob reading does the music get extremely loud (assuming it does at all).


It may not help you, but if I was suspicious of lack of gain on my unit, I'd deploy my nifty Chinese £26 oscilloscope/signal generator, and look at voltage gain from Aux in (where your DAC is connected) to Pre-out (should be at least , and then at a speaker terminal.. etc etc - you'd be seeing at least 30V at increasingly higher volumes. If all the gain checked out, then the problem lies elsewhere.
 
Redacted said:
It may not help you, but if I was suspicious of lack of gain on my unit, I'd deploy my nifty Chinese £26 oscilloscope/signal generator, and look at voltage gain from Aux in (where your DAC is connected) to Pre-out (should be at least , and then at a speaker terminal.. etc etc - you'd be seeing at least 30V at increasingly higher volumes. If all the gain checked out, then the problem lies elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Been looking for such a thing for basic testing purposes, for cheap. Would appreciate pointers into the right direction.
 
 
There are actually some measurements:
There it is reported that the gain is 24dB. That is what interest you and not the attenuation level. That tells you only that you can attenuate the volume down to 78 dB.
This kind of gain is actually on the low side, but also on the better performance one. Arcam A25 has a crazy gain at around 45 dB. This means that it can easily distort and clip with a moderate level input signal.
Then in the equation are the maximum voltage that your source outputs, the amplifier power capabilities and the material dBFS.
In your example reaching 200 w/ 8ohm you need to reach sqrt(200*8) = 40V (W=(V^2)/R). This means that you can reach that with 40/(10^(24/20))=2.5V (dB=20*log(V1/V2)). Most sources output more than that. So it depends on the material. Bypassing internal DAC and adding an external source could make a difference, but not always. It depends on the implementation of the internal DAC which theoretically it should never clip.
What matters, at the end with such kind of gain, is if you reach the desired loudness.
 
Try setting Wiim volume back to variable, double-check no limiting in either location.

Set all other gain/level controls to full highest.

Then start out low on the Wiim and (slowly) start bumping up.

Worst case the Wiim USB output could get routed through a clean combined DAC / HPamp output, or a pro-level line driver

but don't exceed the rated max input voltage on the integrated inputs.
 
Alexx said:
Yes, I have a multimeter (tester). How should I set it and what procedure should I follow for the measurements?
Click to expand...
You're going to measure AC Volts at the source output, the preamp output and finally the speaker output. You should probably disconnect your speakers during the test as it could get very loud.

You will need some test tones at known levels. REW and sox can both be used to generate them, either directly from a computer or saved to files that you can play from a USB stick on the Wiim. Most cheap multimeters can measure AC accurately for frequencies up to 400Hz, so pick a frequency below that, say 200Hz. In REW you would do this by selecting Generator from the button bar. By default it comes up on the Tones and Sine tabs which is what you want. Set the frequency, and the level to 0 dBFS so we know it will be at full output. You have the option to Play to your audio output, or 'Save to file' - in either case you probably want to output to L+R (Left and Right) so there's no confusion about which side to measure. You should only need a few seconds of signal to take the measurement.

You might want to make a test lead to avoid having to hold the probes carefully on the RCA connectors. This can be RCA to bare wire, or to 4mm plugs for most multimeters. If you've got a cheap old interconnect then cut it in half and bare the ends, and optionally add 4mm plugs. Or get an RCA to screw terminal adapter.

First measure the output from the source, so disconnect the source from the amp. We're expecting 2V AC, so make sure the multimeter is set to measure AC Volts, and if it's not autoranging set it to the next range above 2V. Play the signal and measure the output level. If it's much below 2V then you've found your problem - the source isn't at full output, so check the Wiim settings. If it's around 2V you can move on.

Next reconnect the source to the amp input, check the speakers are disconnected, and measure at the preamp output. I've not checked the specs but I expect this will be up to 2V again, depending on volume setting and any gain you've added to the input. You should see the level change depending on volume setting. If the level at maximum volume is much below 2V then you've got a problem in the preamp gain, so check the settings.

Finally you can measure at the speaker terminals on the amp. We're expecting up to 40V at full volume here so you probably need to select a higher range on the multimeter.

Wait a bit to see if anyone points out something I've missed here, and ask if anything isn't clear. If in any doubt then ask - you wouldn't want to damage your amp.
 
Excellent.

Thank you so much for the valuable advice. I'll do some testing and experimenting this weekend, but I don't think there's a solution.

I also received a letter from a UK technician (a Quad reviewer) telling me that it was designed this way and there's not much they can do about it. The same thing the Link review says, namely, that it has very low gain...

The design choice is questionable, and the sound at low or medium volumes is unfortunately very poor, with the possibility of a flat, lackluster, and dynamic sound at low volumes.

I wonder if they can fix this with a software update.

The loudest level is around 10 dB, practically near maximum, and for a full sound you need to be at least 20-23 dB, but that's too much for background music.

At 40-50 dB, there's little detail and body/dynamics in the music.

It reaches maximum volume (0dB) very easily, even though I have small, underpowered speakers.

I'm starting to think I'll have to keep it like this; I'm not very happy with it after spending €2,900. Let's see. I can't resell it for now; I'd lose too much money.
Unfortunately, I relied on the manufacturer's reviews.
 
This must be an excellent amplifier, so the question is what is the underlying problem. First, it could be your expectation of the workings of a volume control. There are plenty of amplifiers that increase the volume a lot even at low settings to give you a lot of distortion when you turn up the volume beyond that level. This suggests the amplifier has more power than it actually has. Quad may be wiser and more honest than many. An alternative explanation is that with this complex volume control there is a software setting somewhere. Finally, there may be a gain matching issue in your equipment chain. Did you contact Quad in the UK? Their service people are superbly knowledgeable.
 
Alexx said:
[...]
The design choice is questionable, and the sound at low or medium volumes is unfortunately very poor, with the possibility of a flat, lackluster, and dynamic sound at low volumes.


I wonder if they can fix this with a software update.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, amp gain typically cannot be fixed via a software update. But just to be clear: The sound is most likely poor and "unengaging" because it is lower in level at your preferred position of the volume knob. Listening at a lower SPL generally sounds worse. There is no inherent sound difference due to the lower gain, that is just a superficial impression.

As far as I can see, nothing prevents you from turning up the volume high enough to get enjoyment out of your music, even if the peak level isn't quite reaching the threshold of pain.

Alexx said:
The loudest level is around 10 dB, practically near maximum, and for a full sound you need to be at least 20-23 dB, but that's too much for background music.


At 40-50 dB, there's little detail and body/dynamics in the music.

It reaches maximum volume (0dB) very easily, even though I have small, underpowered speakers.

I'm starting to think I'll have to keep it like this; I'm not very happy with it after spending €2,900. Let's see. I can't resell it for now; I'd lose too much money.
Unfortunately, I relied on the manufacturer's reviews.
Click to expand...
It may be the case that a gain of 24 dB is just a bad fit for the rest of your system. That would be unlucky, but there's plenty of amps with identical sound and higher gain out there.

But hopefully it's just some hidden setting causing these problems and you'll fix it while tinkering on the weekend :)
 
Alexx said:
The loudest level is around 10 dB, practically near maximum, and for a full sound you need to be at least 20-23 dB, but that's too much for background music.

At 40-50 dB, there's little detail and body/dynamics in the music.

It reaches maximum volume (0dB) very easily, even though I have small, underpowered speakers.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that -10 is louder than 0 (full volume)? It would really help if you use the minus sign for the volume settings, as this reads like the volume can be set to positive numbers, my amp can do this, is uses digital gain above zero.

It might help for some SPL readings for the volume settings, a phone app is good enough for this.

Unless your amp is faulty I expect it to be excellent, with plenty of power for your speakers. The volume control will be working very differently from a lot of older designed amps, that often has too much gain, and limited volume dial movement in the usable range. This design should give you very nice control over volume, and it will look like it's very high when playing at a good volume. When you have adjusted to the way this works it's much nicer to live with, precise small adjustments are available at any volume.
 
@Willem
The combination with my small speakers certainly doesn't help the design of this amplifier.

You're right, this volume behavior is mostly new to me and I need to get used to it.

I contacted Quad Regno Uitno, but they're forwarding the question to Quad Italia.

@RandomEar
Thanks for the information. Knowing that low gain doesn't compromise sound quality is very important. Indeed, the slow volume adjustment is a bit confusing, but at this point, I just need to get used to it.

@Soniclife
Sorry, I mean, at -10 it sounds softer than at -0 (minus zero would be the maximum). You're right, the volume control is completely different from any other amplifier I've ever had and has many more adjustments.

So if I understand correctly, this type of "low gain" could be an advantage, as it doesn't cause distortion and allows for full, "clean" power when needed.

Do you have any idea how much I'd gain in performance with a speaker with a sensitivity of at least 89 dB? Perhaps the best thing to do would be to replace the Monitor Audio Studio 89s with more sensitive ones.

Sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm not very good at electronics.

Thanks so much for your help.
 
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