Integrated phono in turntable

[FTB]

Hi there,

In the next few months I'm going to buy a turntable again as I have some nice classical LPs here.
As a teenager I went through Thorens TD160 and Braun PS500.

Now I think I will go for a modern and simple (direct drive) TT like the Audio-Technica AT-LP120X as :

- it is in my budget
- it looks sturdy : weight is 8kg when other turntable in this price range is 3-5 kg...
- I don't need more for the ratio of my LP listening

AT-LP120XUSB

En plus de la sortie USB, la platine est également dotée d'un câble de sortie détachable double RCA et d'un préamplificateur phono commutable permettant ...

www.audio-technica.com

What I don't know is the quality of such integrated phono preamp. Is someone had the chance to measure such a thing ?
A phono preamplifier is simple electronics but as some reviews show here it is not everytime well done.

Will I have to add a quality phono as the Pluto Uturn (100 $) (again low budget) ?

Thank you,
Florian

 

[notsodeadlizard]

"A phono preamplifier is simple electronics..."

This is not entirely true, to put it mildly.

But if you look at how much the Thorens you got used to as a teenager costs now, most likely you will not like such a cheap Audio-Technica turntable

 

[NiagaraPete]

Thorens TD160

Fantastic player.

 

[FTB]

Hey,

Thanks for your answers.
It was fun to had a TD160 but can you precise what makes it a great TT for you ?

I like the build simplicity (take a look inside a PS500 for a headache!) but what I remember about :

-low-quality chassis made from chipboard
-motor on direct AC makes it noisy/vibrating
-plastic pulley easily out of roundness
-springs suspension a bit messy to adjust for proper level
-the original headshell ! big pain to mount and adjust a cartridge from bottom... requires special screws with proper lenght
-arm settings a bit approximate (antiskating...)
etc

I was a teenager fifteen years ago so it was already a vintage thing when I had it. Was it a high-end TT at the time ?

I don't know if going for a vintage thing is the proper way now as audio evolve.

I took a look to Project models in my price range (less than 500€) or the Rega Planar 1 still made. It's basically MDF planck with a straight arm, DC motor (good) and aluminum pulley but no suspension. Don't know what to think about that.

 

[Joe Smith]

Personally, I like the current AT-120 table. I own one in black and it's my main use one right now, paired with an AT 95 microline cartridge. As long as you are OK with fully manual operation, I think it's the value leader. Table was $230 U.S. and the microline stylus runs about $170. I have not use the 120's internal preamp so I can't speak to that - I have used it with older integrated preamps mostly (Marantz 2216 and NAD 1020). I would suggest you get the table, use it with the supplied 95 elliptical cartridge and internal preamp, and see where you are. The new Pluto and Mani preamps are good, fairly inexpensive add ons if you find the internal pre in the 120 is not good enough.

I remember hearing that the internal preamp was improved in the current AT-LP120Xusb model from the prior version...for what that's worth...

I lust after the new Technics models, but having used and used many good vintage tables, I think the AT gets you good sound at a great price...particularly if vinyl is not your main source on a daily basis, but to be used occasionally.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I wouldn't go any lower than the Pioneer PLX 1000 if you're looking for a modern hi-fi DD. Where everyone sets their lowest threshold is, of course, very individual. The old Thorens TD 160 was not exactly a bargain at the time. (I had many Thorens in my audio biography and I liked them)

You could also think of today's Thorens, where there are high quality models again.

 

[DVDdoug]

If I was in the market for a new turntable the AT-120 would be at the top of my list. It seems to be in the sweet spot... Not too cheap and not too expensive.

I like direct drive. No belts or drive wheels to wear out. I've got an old Technics (not the high-end DJ model) and I never had any trouble with it.

A built-in preamp is good since they are no longer built-into every receiver. And I don't need a super-good one as long as there isn't excess noise. I gave-up trying to improve vinyl playback when I got my 1st CD player. The records themselves are the limiting factor unless you've got a really cheap setup.

And it also comes with a cartridge so it's ready-to-play. And it has USB, and the only thing I use a turntable for is very-occasionally digitizing a record that's not available digitally.

 

[computer-audiophile]

If I was in the market for a new turntable the AT-120 would be at the top of my list. It seems to be in the sweet spot... Not too cheap and not too expensive.

Unfortunately, the technical data are not very good.
And the built-in phono preamplifier doesn't sound good either, in my opinion....

Wow + Flutter <0.2 % (WTD) at 3 kHz (JIS) .... should be 0.02
Signal to noise ratio >50 dB .... should be 70 dB

 

[mhardy6647]

@FTB, may I suggest that you consider a good "pure" turntable (new or used, direct or belt drive*) that you can afford and that gets good comments from... shall we say... responsible sources and a decent quality standalone phono preamplifier.
The Art Audio "Precision PhonoPre" phono preamp is a notch above "basic", seems to work fairly well, and isn't expensive (at least in the US). Not sure if this would be a cost-effective option in the BRD, or even if it's available... but something like that should do fine.

ART Precision Phono Pre Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the ART Precision Phono Pre. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $81. The look reminds of Radio Shack equipment of 1970s! So outdated but I guess it keeps their costs down. You get variable gain which is handy together with a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

_______________
* I actually hesitate to make specific suggestions -- but that won't stop me, unfortunately! If I were you, and on a severe budget, I would seriously consider the local acquisition of a well-kept massmarket vintage (used! ) direct drive turntable such as a Technics SL-D2 or SL-Q2. These were well designed and also fairly well built. Obviously, they're also over four decades old, so you'll want to look for a clean and well cared for unit. You'd also want to check for play in the tonearm bearings and the main platter bearing, along with the obvious basic functional tests. Alternatively, I'd suggest the current "entry level" Technics direct drive tt... but they're rather expensive.



Do you still have that Thorens? If you do -- you should use that! It's a very good turntable.

 

[igfarm]

I got the LP-120XUSB for Christmas. I am using it with a stock green needle and the built-in pre-amp going to my Motu M4/CamillaDSP setup. I was playing a brand new record from Yasmin Williams the other days and comparing it with the digital version in Qobuz and was surprised at how similar they sounded. This made me reconsider the thought of adding an external pre-amp.

Maybe this is a testament to how not very "resolving" my ears or system are, or perhaps a statement that AT got it mostly right with this second version of this device. Either way, happy with the purchase as I don't plan to make a hobby of collecting records, but I occasionally enjoy the ritual of playing one. I did give some thought to measuring the thing, but I sort of gave up after some research and realizing how imperfect the medium is, which at the end of the day, is its charm.

P.S. The only upgrade I did was to replace the felt mat with a cork one, mainly as an aesthetic statement, and I don't plan to engage in any D.J. activities at the moment.

 

[FTB]

I got the LP-120XUSB for Christmas. I am using it with a stock green needle and the built-in pre-amp going to my Motu M4/CamillaDSP setup. I was playing a brand new record from Yasmin Williams the other days and comparing it with the digital version in Qobuz and was surprised at how similar they sounded. This made me reconsider the thought of adding an external pre-amp.

Maybe this is a testament to how not very "resolving" my ears or system are, or perhaps a statement that AT got it mostly right with this second version of this device. Either way, happy with the purchase as I don't plan to make a hobby of collecting records, but I occasionally enjoy the ritual of playing one. I did give some thought to measuring the thing, but I sort of gave up after some research and realizing how imperfect the medium is, which at the end of the day, is its charm.

P.S. The only upgrade I did was to replace the felt mat with a cork one, mainly as an aesthetic statement, and I don't plan to engage in any D.J. activities at the moment.

Thanks for you feedback, I save it.

@FTB, may I suggest that you consider a good "pure" turntable (new or used, direct or belt drive*) that you can afford and that gets good comments from... shall we say... responsible sources and a decent quality standalone phono preamplifier.
The Art Audio "Precision PhonoPre" phono preamp is a notch above "basic", seems to work fairly well, and isn't expensive (at least in the US). Not sure if this would be a cost-effective option in the BRD, or even if it's available... but something like that should do fine.

ART Precision Phono Pre Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the ART Precision Phono Pre. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $81. The look reminds of Radio Shack equipment of 1970s! So outdated but I guess it keeps their costs down. You get variable gain which is handy together with a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

_______________
* I actually hesitate to make specific suggestions -- but that won't stop me, unfortunately! If I were you, and on a severe budget, I would seriously consider the local acquisition of a well-kept massmarket vintage (used! ) direct drive turntable such as a Technics SL-D2 or SL-Q2. These were well designed and also fairly well built. Obviously, they're also over four decades old, so you'll want to look for a clean and well cared for unit. You'd also want to check for play in the tonearm bearings and the main platter bearing, along with the obvious basic functional tests. Alternatively, I'd suggest the current "entry level" Technics direct drive tt... but they're rather expensive.



Do you still have that Thorens? If you do -- you should use that! It's a very good turntable.

Your suggestions are welcome as it is in my budget.
These Technics are well made in aluminum, no cheap plastic thing. Direct drive is what I look for (I grew up with an entry-level Technics, plastic made and belt drive).

As computer-audiophile wrote above, wow+flutter and signal/noise ratio of the Audio-Technica LP120X are not so good, specs of these Technics are way better !
In Europe we can find them for 200€ or less + a good MM cartridge (ATH or Ortofon ?)+ an Art DJ preamp or Uturn Pluto or a Schiit one... It could be good.

Do you know the difference between SLQ2 and SLD2 ? They look pretty close.

I don't have the Thorens anymore but as I wrote before I was not that fan of this turntable... about performance and set-up.

 

[mhardy6647]

The SL-D2 was the semi-automatic DD in the entry level line of that era and is a bit plastic-y. Not poorly made (especially by modern standards!), but not as substantial as the better Technics tts of the era (ca. 1979). Note that Matsushita touts their plastic as "TNRC" (Technics Non-Resonant Compound).

The SL-Q2 has a quartz locked DD system (no speed adjustment on it), semi-automatic DD and is a notch more substantially built. I believe (?!?) the SL-Qx seris was the mid-level line of the same era as the SL-Dx line.

The speed adjustment pots in the SL-D2 (the one is accessible from the front panel, but there are also, IIRC, two internal speed adjustment pots for 33 and 45) typically need to be cleaned at this late date.

source of both screen captures above: https://www.hifiengine.com/hfe_downloads/index.php?technics/technics_hifi_1979-80_en.pdf

We've owned both and I can vouch for decades' worth of good performance from both Still have the SL-Q2, although we passed the SL-D2 (which had been my wife's from her grad school days) along to a friend some years back.

Hope this is helpful (if non-quantitative)!

 

[FTB]

Thank you, it helps !

SL-Q2 looks really good.
Aluminum chassis, kind of thing I want. Don't know about the Audio-Technica, they only say aluminum platter but what about the chassis ?
I don't want a cheap plastic thing or MDF.....
Plus there is no info about tonearm effective mass of the AT-LP120 so kinda stuck with the included ATVM95E cartridge.

SL-Q2 fits with Ortofon Super OM5 or 2M Red (in my budget) + the Schiit Mani measuring well (in my budget too ! ) https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-mani-2-review-phono-stage.31194/

It could be a great set-up !

 

[Joe Smith]

I have also many next generation Yamaha tables (P-200, P-320, P-500, etc.). Generally solid and well made. The goop in the cue drop mechanism dries out and usually needs replacing. Some of the auto-return features get a little wonky and are not necessarily an easy fix. I think the earlier ones, like the one mentioned above, may be a bit more reliable for the automatic features - anecdotal comments I've heard over time...

The plinth/base of the AT 120's are plastic, I have the black one rather than silver. Despite this, good heaviness, looks good and sounds good, it does not feel "cheap," at least to me.

 

[FTB]

Thanks for the info of plastic base, I mailed ATH to know more about chassis of higher-end models.

In case I choose not to choose a vintage Technics as something 40 years old can be tired, I took a look to new models below 500€, belt-driven this time.

There is the ATH AT-LPW40 with a MDF chassis, alu platter and a straight carbon tonearm for 379€ here.
The AT-LPW50 has a thicker chassis and higher-end feet it seems, carbon tonearm is the same, 429€.
Both have a AT-VM95E cartridge mounted.

After all I could choose a MDF chassis, I guess it is still better for durability and vibrations than plastic. A lot of speakers are made of MDF nowadays.

Carbon tonearm at this price sounds good...

I can have the Teac TN3 with same AT-VM95E cartridge for 380€ instead of 500 :

MDF plinth, DC motor with metal pulley as the ATH models, alu platter but S shapped aluminium tonearm designed with SAEC.
I have no idea what is more important between the shape of the tonearm or its material.
I read a post about this subject on this forum but it looked like there is no final answer. My guess is the material is more important for vibration dampening and the shape for trackability error as a S shaped tonearm is virtually longer but please note this is a very intuitive assertion.

Pro-ject turntables with carbon tonearm start at 600€ here (Debut Carbon with an Ortofon 2M Red mounted), too high for my wallet.

 

[FTB]

If some people are interested, I dropped a mail to Audio Technica.

Even the high-end LP5X (direct-drive) is plastic chassis.
The phono preamp is MM/MC

 

[czguy1978]

I used to service turntables on the side, mostly because I enjoyed the aesthetic improvements but literally every direct drive Technics I ever flipped worked 100% after the slightest but of work.

I have three tables in the $500 to $1,000 range but the one I use the most is an AT LP1240 which is more DJ-oriented, but has a much heavier chassis. I put a Grado Opus 3 cartridge on it. The built in preamp was definitely OK to get you going but the iFi is a big improvement.

I also have a Fluance RT85 which is pretty nice. It's very attractive but I prefer the LP1240.

I bought a couple LP120s and flipped them and still have a black LP120 USB. Put an ML stylus on it and it's my go to table for doing vinyl rips. Some folks really hate that table but, without comparing it to something else... I think it's a pretty decent table.

 

[JeffS7444]

I measured frequency response of AT LP120USB built-in preamp + Ortofon 2M Red: Not bad! If you seek the lowest possible capacitive cartridge loading, it’s tough to beat a built-in preamp.

Much of the impressive mass is bogus, just a couple of steel plates, one of which weighs 3 kg and serves no other purpose.

 

[TimW]

I work at a buddy's store sometimes and we are an Audio Technica dealer. The AT-LP120 is very cheap and plasticky feeling to me, especially when comparing to an SL-1200. Even other brands of SL-1200 knock offs like Stanton feel higher quality. The AT-LP5X feels a bit more solid to me but that is probably just because it lacks the plastic knobs and lights of the LP120. The best built AT tables I've felt were either the AT-LP7 which annoyingly doesn't have a hinged cover or the AT-LP2022 which was overpriced. I fixed up an old Technics SL-1500 and regret selling it all the time (current table is a Phase Linear Model 8000 Series 2). If I were to get a new direct drive table, it would be the Technics SL-100C since I already have good carts and phono stage. Otherwise the SL-1500C might be my choice but I haven't liked the Ortofon 2M Red when I heard it.

 

[recycle]

Manufacturers stopped technological research on the turntable already in the 80s, that is, since the arrival of the CD, in fact today we consider the turntable as an archaic music player (actually it is). From the mid 80s to now there has been no more improvement in the engineering of its components and for this reason, modern turntables are just poor imitations of what was good 40 years ago. My advice for buying a turntable is to choose a good restored vintage product, instead of buying a bad plasticky imitation made now.
The direct drive motor should only be chosen for heavy duty use (DJing), on the contrary, for HiFi listening the belt drive is much more performing precisely because it is quieter. Maximum care must then be taken in the choice of cartridge and riaa preamp: all the character of the turntable comes from there. Good luck