Inside High res music: Jazz at the Pawnshop NAXOS (DSD)

[Harris Fogel]

??? I have known Mark for probably 20 years now. For most of his career he was an advocate of highest level of video and audio recording. It is only the last few years that he has changed his views and now is dubious on benefits of high-res music. He had produced DVD-A (?) content in addition to some early HD video recordings with high sample rate music.

His transformation started when he did some shootouts with Keith Howard on AVS Forum. Ironically, I passed some of his tests of CD vs high-res.

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/11 06:18:47

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Mosaic_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Mosaic_B2.wav

06:18:47 : Test started.
06:19:38 : 00/01 100.0%
06:20:15 : 00/02 100.0%
06:20:47 : 01/03 87.5%
06:21:01 : 01/04 93.8%
06:21:20 : 02/05 81.3%
06:21:32 : 03/06 65.6%
06:21:48 : 04/07 50.0%
06:22:01 : 04/08 63.7%
06:22:15 : 05/09 50.0%
06:22:24 : 05/10 62.3%
06:23:15 : 06/11 50.0%
06:23:27 : 07/12 38.7%
06:23:36 : 08/13 29.1%
06:23:49 : 09/14 21.2%
06:24:02 : 10/15 15.1%
06:24:10 : 11/16 10.5%
06:24:20 : 12/17 7.2%
06:24:27 : 13/18 4.8%
06:24:35 : 14/19 3.2%
06:24:40 : 15/20 2.1%
06:24:46 : 16/21 1.3%
06:24:56 : 17/22 0.8%
06:25:04 : 18/23 0.5%
06:25:13 : 19/24 0.3%
06:25:25 : 20/25 0.2%
06:25:32 : 21/26 0.1%
06:25:38 : 22/27 0.1%
06:25:45 : 23/28 0.0%
06:25:51 : 24/29 0.0%
06:25:58 : 25/30 0.0%
06:26:24 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 25/30 (0.0%)

So 25 out of 30 right with essentially 0% chance of guessing.

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/10 21:01:16

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Just_My_Imagination_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Just_My_Imagination_B2.wav

21:01:16 : Test started.
21:02:11 : 01/01 50.0%
21:02:20 : 02/02 25.0%
21:02:28 : 03/03 12.5%
21:02:38 : 04/04 6.3%
21:02:47 : 05/05 3.1%
21:02:56 : 06/06 1.6%
21:03:06 : 07/07 0.8%
21:03:16 : 08/08 0.4%
21:03:26 : 09/09 0.2%
21:03:45 : 10/10 0.1%
21:03:54 : 11/11 0.0%
21:04:11 : 12/12 0.0%
21:04:24 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

This one 12 out of 12 right.

But many people failed miserably so it was concluded that there was not an audible difference.

Amir, thanks for bringing me up-to-date with Mark's research. Indeed you are correct, he no longer feels that high res, apart from production work, works for most people. We chatted, and he sent me the link to try the files he used in the tests. I'm going to take a spin with them as well.

I've heard enough of a difference, on enough occasions, that I'm still a believer in high-res. Alternatively, I've heard so many fantastic sounding CDs, that amazed me, that I'm not 100% sure of anything. When High-Res files started arriving, many of the files sounded great, but some sounded identical to normal redbook CDs. So, happy to give Mark's test a serious run.

Thanks for the correction and update. I'll add a note to my original post with the proper information.

 

[Ata]

??? I have known Mark for probably 20 years now. For most of his career he was an advocate of highest level of video and audio recording. It is only the last few years that he has changed his views and now is dubious on benefits of high-res music. He had produced DVD-A (?) content in addition to some early HD video recordings with high sample rate music.

His transformation started when he did some shootouts with Keith Howard on AVS Forum. Ironically, I passed some of his tests of CD vs high-res.

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/11 06:18:47

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Mosaic_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Mosaic_B2.wav

06:18:47 : Test started.
06:19:38 : 00/01 100.0%
06:20:15 : 00/02 100.0%
06:20:47 : 01/03 87.5%
06:21:01 : 01/04 93.8%
06:21:20 : 02/05 81.3%
06:21:32 : 03/06 65.6%
06:21:48 : 04/07 50.0%
06:22:01 : 04/08 63.7%
06:22:15 : 05/09 50.0%
06:22:24 : 05/10 62.3%
06:23:15 : 06/11 50.0%
06:23:27 : 07/12 38.7%
06:23:36 : 08/13 29.1%
06:23:49 : 09/14 21.2%
06:24:02 : 10/15 15.1%
06:24:10 : 11/16 10.5%
06:24:20 : 12/17 7.2%
06:24:27 : 13/18 4.8%
06:24:35 : 14/19 3.2%
06:24:40 : 15/20 2.1%
06:24:46 : 16/21 1.3%
06:24:56 : 17/22 0.8%
06:25:04 : 18/23 0.5%
06:25:13 : 19/24 0.3%
06:25:25 : 20/25 0.2%
06:25:32 : 21/26 0.1%
06:25:38 : 22/27 0.1%
06:25:45 : 23/28 0.0%
06:25:51 : 24/29 0.0%
06:25:58 : 25/30 0.0%
06:26:24 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 25/30 (0.0%)

So 25 out of 30 right with essentially 0% chance of guessing.

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/07/10 21:01:16

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Just_My_Imagination_A2.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\AIX AVS Test files\Just_My_Imagination_B2.wav

21:01:16 : Test started.
21:02:11 : 01/01 50.0%
21:02:20 : 02/02 25.0%
21:02:28 : 03/03 12.5%
21:02:38 : 04/04 6.3%
21:02:47 : 05/05 3.1%
21:02:56 : 06/06 1.6%
21:03:06 : 07/07 0.8%
21:03:16 : 08/08 0.4%
21:03:26 : 09/09 0.2%
21:03:45 : 10/10 0.1%
21:03:54 : 11/11 0.0%
21:04:11 : 12/12 0.0%
21:04:24 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

This one 12 out of 12 right.

But many people failed miserably so it was concluded that there was not an audible difference.

How is the CD quality version related to the Hires? The only option that would be fair is if the Redbook audio is derived directly from the Hires used in the comparison using a high quality downsampling algorithm. Anything else and there would be differences unrelated to the sound storage format.

Would be keen to do the same A/B test myself, using the best headphone setup I have.

 

[bennetng]

Could have fooled me. The voice quality is decently recorded.

EDIT: Btw, is there any literature of PCM vs DSD from a testing perspective? (Where hopefully both have their HF garbage cut out before testing)?

Should be relevant to your question:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/digital-filter-game.23795/post-810355

 

[Tks]

Should be relevant to your question:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/digital-filter-game.23795/post-810355

Thanks ben, always with the super helpful info.

 

[alek19000]

THX so much Amir!!!
I checked all my dsd files according to this, they are all bullshit!!!
Then I think again, nowadays ,can microphones catch the frequencies above 50KHZ? definitely No!!
So what's the point to have these dsd256 11.2Mhz sample rate?? they are Radio frequecies! and can contain only device electronic themal noise (which is the best case), or some more nasty interference .
What pissed me off was like some supper expensive records, cost more than 100 bucks, dsd256 format, is transffered from 44.1khz cd format!!!! that is fraud!!!!!


I checked again with 96khz flac, then I found for some symphonic music, there seem to be some 30khz harmonic correlates with music or certain instruments.
So, maybe 96khz or 88 khz is the best to have right now and so forth? ?

 

[Blumlein 88]

THX so much Amir!!!
I checked all my dsd files according to this, they are all bullshit!!!
Then I think again, nowadays ,can microphones catch the frequencies above 50KHZ? definitely No!!
So what's the point to have these dsd256 11.2Mhz sample rate?? they are Radio frequecies! and can contain only device electronic themal noise (which is the best case), or some more nasty interference .
What pissed me off was like some supper expensive records, cost more than 100 bucks, dsd256 format, is transffered from 44.1khz cd format!!!! that is fraud!!!!!


I checked again with 96khz flac, then I found for some symphonic music, there seem to be some 30khz harmonic correlates with music or certain instruments.
So, maybe 96khz or 88 khz is the best to have right now and so forth? ?

Yep. 88 or 96 kHz is enough. Maybe more than enough. Anything more is unwarranted.

 

[Frgirard]

"The real purpose of the scientific method is to make sure Nature hasn't misled you into thinking you know something you don't actually know." so why 88 or 96 ?

 

[alek19000]

"The real purpose of the scientific method is to make sure Nature hasn't misled you into thinking you know something you don't actually know." so why 88 or 96 ?

88 khz can capture 44khz well and below, in which I found some music related frequency up to that 40 khz, from some symphonic recordings.
Like in this one:
MusicAeterna,Teodor Currentzis; GUSTAV MAHLER Symphony No.6
or :Berliner Philharmoniker,Karajan ; Tchaikovsky: Symphonies No. 1-6

the red ones are corelated, when some violin begin to show up as a beginning of this chapter. I guess....
and the grass on the green curve ,it is the same pattern extends to above maybe 40khz, this is when all the violins start to play at once.

but I am not quite sure, whether it is noise or music?
and what the headphone or speakers, even cables between them do to these things.

 

[Frgirard]

your ear when you was young was a low pass filter at 22 kHz.

Two things must followed in a digital producing

The Shanonn Theorem: Freq Sample Rate=2x Higher Frequency

The Nyquist frequency = 22kHz.

so Freq sample rate = 2x22kHz.

The marketing and the bigger is better can't admit "The real purpose of the scientific method is to make sure Nature hasn't misled you into thinking you know something you don't actually know".

In five or ten years, the same thing will come with the 704 kHz ....the 64 bit.

The Redbook will be never obsolete.

 

[alek19000]

your ear when you was young was a low pass filter at 22 kHz.

Two things must followed in a digital producing

The Shanonn Theorem: Freq Sample Rate=2x Higher Frequency

The Nyquist frequency = 22kHz.

so Freq sample rate = 2x22kHz.

The marketing and the bigger is better can't admit "The real purpose of the scientific method is to make sure Nature hasn't misled you into thinking you know something you don't actually know".

In five or ten years, the same thing will come with the 704 kHz ....the 64 bit.

The Redbook will be never obsolete.

Totally agree!!! I can't hear it even when it goes up just to 18khz ., as I tested myself LOL! So 44.1khz cd is quite enough for me~!

I just showed that the recordings with 96khz may capture the instruments when they sound ,at a certain frequency which we can't hear. In this case , it is better than all dsd recordings ,which contain just pure garbage.