Insane: Denon DP-3000NE

[Bob from Florida]

Those I posted above. W/F from Philip Broder who also made the Yellow one, the other is RPM WOW, both Iphone
View attachment 364721
Android has a very good RPM app too

Downloaded the app. Secret is let the table run for more than 20 seconds before deftly pressing "start" on the phone. Seems the default time to measure is too short for the table to become stabile. The below measures shows wow at 0.05% which was first try with waiting 20 seconds for start. Pressing start on phone before starting the table always results in larger than 0.2 % wow. Second measure is from Waxwing for speed with needle on record runout Denon 103 Spherical stylus at 2.5 grams. Last time I adjusted it was with the Shibata on the Hana at 2 grams.

 

[morillon]

depending on the tolerances and type of lubrication it is always good to run a few minutes before this type of measurements...
apriori I am lucky in my case phone-app when I observe your rather crazy speed values avg..
(but my problem is the slippage due to variations in the sector frequency..;-) )

(don't forget to uninstall and reinstall turntable speed...at least on android..since possible problems since the last update...)



(50,00hz, no compensate, no talc,... just to show that in certain cases be rather precise-credible...)

 

[morillon]

very correct (once the level is done more seriously) for an old "stiff"* suspended -belt... ( no talc ;-) )
but still this accompaniment of the slipping of the sector frequency due to its non-regulation :-(
*therefore not too impacted "in the numbers" by the swing of a phone that is a little too big

the app seems very coherent... (in my case...)

 

[NoxPlague]

I'm enjoying my new Denon DP-3000NE. It does better than my old Music Hall MMF 5.1 SE in the RPM WOW app on my iPhone 14.

My old Music Hall MMF 5.1 SE:

Subjectively I believe that I hear a big improvement. I'm still within my return window for Denon so I'm not trying to bias myself. I've been listening to records side-by-side with both my stereo and a couple different pairs of headphones. I had my "best", Hana SL MC cartridge on the Music Hall to try and disadvantage the Denon, and to be fair which ever tonearm has the Hana has the best bass. But even with my Nagaoka MP 150 MI, I prefer then Denon sound.

I'm really enjoying the DD, the ability to change head shells, and the button to change 33/45 versus having to lift the platter off and move the belt.

One thing that is noticeable is how quiet the "needle talk" is on the Denon compared with the Music Hall 5.1 SE.

The rubber mat included with the Denon also seems critical to its overall performance. I tried using my other mats but couldn't get the sound as good, VTA possibly?

Note on the measurements, I've taken 20+ readings with both tables, these are neither the best, nor the worst, just a random "middling result" No, I haven't plotted all the results in Excel.

 

[Balle Clorin]

How is the feel of the arm? I read that Denon has repeated their 70s damping… not electronic but a rubber damping/fastening of the arm tube/ head shell . By I could not see what it is by visual inspection

 

[morillon]

I'm enjoying my new Denon DP-3000NE. It does better than my old Music Hall MMF 5.1 SE in the RPM WOW app on my iPhone 14.

View attachment 382154




My old Music Hall MMF 5.1 SE:
View attachment 382155


Subjectively I believe that I hear a big improvement. I'm still within my return window for Denon so I'm not trying to bias myself. I've been listening to records side-by-side with both my stereo and a couple different pairs of headphones. I had my "best", Hana SL MC cartridge on the Music Hall to try and disadvantage the Denon, and to be fair which ever tonearm has the Hana has the best bass. But even with my Nagaoka MP 150 MI, I prefer then Denon sound.

I'm really enjoying the DD, the ability to change head shells, and the button to change 33/45 versus having to lift the platter off and move the belt.

One thing that is noticeable is how quiet the "needle talk" is on the Denon compared with the Music Hall 5.1 SE.

The rubber mat included with the Denon also seems critical to its overall performance. I tried using my other mats but couldn't get the sound as good, VTA possibly?

Note on the measurements, I've taken 20+ readings with both tables, these are neither the best, nor the worst, just a random "middling result" No, I haven't plotted all the results in Excel.

the overall slippage on the denon is surprisingly strange...the acquisition, telephone position, or if a slightly "light" realization on the platter axis side etc. explains perhaps the result not too consistent with a dd...it seems to me.. ..

 

[Balle Clorin]

Hmm.. cannot really see why rubber mat or bare platter should make any difference in a phone rpm app. Seems like the first with rubber did not reach stable rpm( upward trend)
Let the TT run 30sec and start the measurement after that…

 

[morillon]

this is what I emphasized in the case of sliding...but with preliminary time, I don't understand how that explains it....with a dd...

 

[Balle Clorin]

But what is slippage? It is not a belt drive

 

[morillon]

But what is slippage? It is not a belt drive

Like you, I don't understand this variation in speed...

 

[Thomas_A]

Just checkez my Linn Axis. Seems stable enough.

 

[morillon]

with a little care the values seem accessible to even unregulated "ac" belts..
(but as in the case of my old vpi mk4 "90s ", 0.04-0.05 sigma / 0.03 rms, the avg speed accompanies the variations in frequency of the ac)
(the problem is that the value of the w&f which affects us is not only on the value of the turntable, but the sum of the entire ana chain that we subbit.. recorder, engraver on the master, defects more or less marked during pressing etc... not a small subject...)

 

[Thomas_A]

Yes static speed stability seems fine also for unregulated AC belt drives. Have you tested dynamic speed stability, e.g.while playing ”Billie Jean”?

 

[morillon]

Yes static speed stability seems fine also for unregulated AC belt drives. Have you tested dynamic speed stability, e.g.while playing ”Billie Jean”?

no I haven't..and won't have access to my equipment for a while..but I'm also going against the grain because I've moved away from vinyl, downgraded etc. in recent years...
my approach to measurement was much more rustic that your "fundamental" research etc...
I was only for optimization and adjustments, verifications in relative mode etc (which in my opinion remains a little more relative than reading the threads here)... I use it like this long before discovering your teams and your efforts..

I cannot and will not I would never want to accompany you too much... but continue to read with interest ;-)

(but if necessary, for classical music etc. I kept a few heavy dds..but too out of date with my current needs and too big..In the end, I will only be left with this old vpi-zeta, just very “neat”…)
(ps..
the "dynamic solidity" of this old vpi 19 mk4 with a fairly heavy platter hardly worries me having often listened to strong orchestral masses or more simply very strongly modulated piano, without noting any problems...)

something that I think many people don't seem to realize..it's that tens of years ago tests were thought to be usable..listening..almost no one being equipped for the measurement..this is the case of these tests have 3k 3k150.. it remains interesting to use them.. without measurements.. real life... interresting ;-)

 

[NoxPlague]

Hmm.. cannot really see why rubber mat or bare platter should make any difference in a phone rpm app. Seems like the first with rubber did not reach stable rpm( upward trend)
Let the TT run 30sec and start the measurement after that…

My comment about the mat was about my perceived sound quality while listening to music, the comment has nothing to do with the results from the RPM WOW phone app.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I'm enjoying my new Denon DP-3000NE. It does better than my old Music Hall MMF 5.1 SE in the RPM WOW app on my iPhone 14.

View attachment 382154




My old Music Hall MMF 5.1 SE:
View attachment 382155


Subjectively I believe that I hear a big improvement. I'm still within my return window for Denon so I'm not trying to bias myself. I've been listening to records side-by-side with both my stereo and a couple different pairs of headphones. I had my "best", Hana SL MC cartridge on the Music Hall to try and disadvantage the Denon, and to be fair which ever tonearm has the Hana has the best bass. But even with my Nagaoka MP 150 MI, I prefer then Denon sound.

I'm really enjoying the DD, the ability to change head shells, and the button to change 33/45 versus having to lift the platter off and move the belt.

One thing that is noticeable is how quiet the "needle talk" is on the Denon compared with the Music Hall 5.1 SE.

The rubber mat included with the Denon also seems critical to its overall performance. I tried using my other mats but couldn't get the sound as good, VTA possibly?

Note on the measurements, I've taken 20+ readings with both tables, these are neither the best, nor the worst, just a random "middling result" No, I haven't plotted all the results in Excel.

With and without rubber is clearly different, possibly measuring too early?

 

[Thomas_A]

no I haven't..and won't have access to my equipment for a while..but I'm also going against the grain because I've moved away from vinyl, downgraded etc. in recent years...
my approach to measurement was much more rustic that your "fundamental" research etc...
I was only for optimization and adjustments, verifications in relative mode etc (which in my opinion remains a little more relative than reading the threads here)... I use it like this long before discovering your teams and your efforts..

I cannot and will not I would never want to accompany you too much... but continue to read with interest ;-)

(but if necessary, for classical music etc. I kept a few heavy dds..but too out of date with my current needs and too big..In the end, I will only be left with this old vpi-zeta, just very “neat”…)
(ps..
the "dynamic solidity" of this old vpi 19 mk4 with a fairly heavy platter hardly worries me having often listened to strong orchestral masses or more simply very strongly modulated piano, without noting any problems...)

something that I think many people don't seem to realize..it's that tens of years ago tests were thought to be usable..listening..almost no one being equipped for the measurement..this is the case of these tests have 3k 3k150.. it remains interesting to use them.. without measurements.. real life... interresting ;-)

I kept my turntable for several reasons though;
- It is nice-looking and give a retrolook to the room - and I like mechanical devices
- I've kept all my LPs, and want to be able to play them when I want
- I buy second-hand CDs and LPs now and then (CDs get ripped, so CD-player no longer needed)

Then there is the so-called "audio hobby". IMO I would not call it a hobby unless you are into building/modifying/improving loudspeakers, amps, DACs and other devices such as turntables Or that you are collector of music, e.g. used LPs or CDs that are original masters/pressings.

ASR is a place where measurement data is presented and where you can discuss technical issues of audio equipment, even if it would be the ”ancient” turntables, cartridges or phono preamps. Many turntable "truths" are anecdotal, and many measurements from the past are unavailable, as exemplified by differences between dynamic wow and flutter vs. static wow and flutter, in belt drives. This was claimed to occur with the LP12 which had good static values but suffered from dynamic wow & flutter. The experiment was said to use a record with a test signal + a dynamic track, and two tonearms. While playing the dynamic track with one arm the test signal was picked up by the other arm.

With the use of the "phone app" method, one could assess this question when using a single tonearm and a record with a dynamic passage.

 

[anmpr1]

How is the feel of the arm? I read that Denon has repeated their 70s damping… not electronic but a rubber damping/fastening of the arm tube/ head shell . By I could not see what it is by visual inspection

From the Denon blurb, and on-line reviews, it appears that this design is, as you said, similar to some of their separate tonearms from the '70s. I had experience with the DA-307 (used on a DP-75 turntable section). The rubber damper was placed before the arm tube met the pivot bearings, which made the entire arm (from the cartridge to the pivot) somewhat wobbly. The idea was to damp resonances, breaking the main resonance into resonances of smaller amplitude. I guess you could say it was somewhat similar to the way an oil damped unipivot wobbles.

Not sure about this new arm, but the DA-307 also featured magnetic antiskating, which was a nice touch.

However, because of the loosey-goosey nature of the arm tube, it was not as easy to statically balance--at least not like a fixed gimbal tonarm. But once you got it level, it seemed to work OK. Yet I never thought much of this wobbly design, always imagining that the stylus in the groove interface had to be prone to at least some degree of dynamic misalignment during play. Also, I worried about rubber damper deterioration over time--how much time is anyone's guess.

As far as this new record player? It appears solid, and is likely less 'tweaky' than legacy Denons. For instance, the DP-75 had a magnetic track etched on the inside of the platter (which itself was two damped pieces held together with a bolt), all read by a tape head. The frequency off the magnetic strip was somehow fed into the quartz PLL circuit, for x-tra stability. Also had a strobe (but no speed control) which was rock solid.

The new deck doesn't use this type of speed monitor, which is probably a good thing from a service standpoint. If a magnetic platter strip or tape head had problems, I have no idea who could fix that, today. The plinth on the new deck is quite heavy--much heavier than the one Denon sold with the DP-75.

At its price point, the new Denon seems good value. About half of what Technics wants for their top of the line 1200, without the industrial look and slider speed control, but IMO it does not look as nice as some of their legacy decks.