Input needed: Do I really need surge protectors and other electrical system gadgets?

[Bugal1998]

Hi all,

I’m about to have the electrical run for my dedicated A/V room (2-channel is priority but will include a 9.1.6 atmos). The A/V room will have it’s own sub-panel and the rack located just outside the room. Here‘s the suggested electrical gear and I’d love to know the thoughts those in the know on this forum.

Environmental Potentials EP-2775 Ground Filter
-Not sure I believe in filtering the ground unless this can somehow protect the gear and prevent ground loops
Environmental Potentials Whole House Surge Protector EP-2050EE on the 30amp sub-panel breaker
SurgeX SX-n240 on the sub amp
SurgeX SEQ for the non-Sub amps
SurgeX SX-1120-RT on the projector and non-AV gear

Is this money well spent to prevent problems over the long-run, or over-kill? Would some surge protection components be suggested before others?

Appreciate any informed perspectives!

Thanks!

 

[storing]

You should probably mention your country and/or whether there are frequent problems with the electricity net. Where I live the last time there was any problem worth mentioning (a powercut of 30 minutes) is years ago. For the rest everything looks stable enough (also shape and frequency, if that even matters). As such, doesn't look like there's much to protect against for me. But that's not quite the case everywhere. On the other hand I've also read power strips which turn everything on/off at once are problematic, though I've personally never experienced problems with that. And I use those a lot.

 

[Holmz]

The whole house units, installed at the box, may be a better solution than 3 units at the rack?
They are more industrial and less “HiFi”, so it could be more economical.

 

[Thomas_A]

Twenty years ago I tried a surge protector ("Voltex") getting rave reviews in magazines for its better sound (I tried it due to a lamp switch giving spikes the Hifi equipment). I did reduce some of the transients, but for unknown reasons also introduced a lot of "static-like" noise. I live in another apartment now, without these problems.

I have an old report, however not translated to English here.

 

[Bugal1998]

You should probably mention your country and/or whether there are frequent problems with the electricity net. Where I live the last time there was any problem worth mentioning (a powercut of 30 minutes) is years ago. For the rest everything looks stable enough (also shape and frequency, if that even matters). As such, doesn't look like there's much to protect against for me. But that's not quite the case everywhere. On the other hand I've also read power strips which turn everything on/off at once are problematic, though I've personally never experienced problems with that. And I use those a lot.

Good call out…

I’m a little north west of Pennsylvania, USA. I’m not aware of power problems per say, but I’ve never measured or tested it. We do have HVAC units, washing machine, electric dryer, refrigerators, and other appliances in the home if that’s a factor.

I’m not looking for sound quality improvement (except the prevention of ground loop hums if possible), rather, I’m curious about the need to prevent equipment failures over time.

The SEQ unit is to prevent turning everything on all at once, and instead sequence them… Sequencing is probably important, but there may be lower cost ways to accomplish it if I don’t need the surge protection.

 

[Bugal1998]

Twenty years ago I tried a surge protector ("Voltex") getting rave reviews in magazines for its better sound (I tried it due to a lamp switch giving spikes the Hifi equipment). I did reduce some of the transients, but for unknown reasons also introduced a lot of "static-like" noise. I live in another apartment now, without these problems.

I have an old report, however not translated to English here.

I’ve heard that ‘power conditioners’ can actually reduce the available current to amps… I also don’t believe conditioning will lead to improvements in audio quality, so I’m not looking for any conditioning beyond surge protection.

 

[dasdoing]

why buy this expensive stuff over a $20 power strip with a build-in circuit breaker?

 

[Bugal1998]

why buy this expensive stuff over a $20 power strip with a build-in circuit breaker?

I guess that’s the question… Though I was under the impression that a circuit breaker protects against over current situations, and surge protectors protect against over voltage. So I think for me, it really comes down to:

• Do I need surge protection at all?
  • If yes, is the panel protector sufficient, or do the electronics in the same panel need to be protected from the amps powering on/off or ramping their current draw up and down with signal variations?
• Do I need a ground filter?
  • I really don’t think so, but I’m pretty uninformed in this space

 

[BDWoody]

I guess that’s the question… Though I was under the impression that a circuit breaker protects against over current situations, and surge protectors protect against over voltage. So I think for me, it really comes down to:

• Do I need surge protection at all?
  • If yes, is the panel protector sufficient, or do the electronics in the same panel need to be protected from the amps powering on/off or ramping their current draw up and down with signal variations?
• Do I need a ground filter?
  • I really don’t think so, but I’m pretty uninformed in this space

I'd say go for the whole house suppressor in your load panel(s), then go for some power strips.

 

[DWPress]

How much current draw do you actually need is also the question. Are you eventually running 16 channels with inefficient amps?

The sub panel is probably overkill as well but is a convenient way of isolating the system - turn the panel off in a storm or outage. It's new construction and code is probably a 20 amp outlet every 6-8', depending on the size of your room that may be 1-3 circuits + 15 amp lighting runs. Dedicating a breaker or two just for your exclusive AV may be justified depending on power needs.

Just before Christmas I lost power for 4.5 days and when it came back on somehow my house transformer dumped a huge surge taking out GFCI outlets, ceiling fans, furnace controller AND my beloved Okto Dac. Surge went right through my (now older but expensive when I bought it) Furman conditioner/surge protector. Fortunately on the Okto it was just a simple fuse in the IEC plug inlet.

If it were me and I was going to invest in this sort of tech I'd go for a whole house system. I'm in N MI and lose power frequently so potential worse case scenario.

edit: just noted you plan to put the rack outside the room next to your panel - even easier just to give it a breaker or two.

 

[Bugal1998]

I'd say go for the whole house suppressor in your load panel(s), then go for some power strips.

Thanks, Woody. If I don’t need to be overly concerned about surges during operation and powering the amps on/off, I think that’s exactly what I’ll do.

How much current draw do you actually need is also the question. Are you eventually running 16 channels with inefficient amps?

The sub panel is probably overkill as well but is a convenient way of isolating the system - turn the panel off in a storm or outage. It's new construction and code is probably a 20 amp outlet every 6-8', depending on the size of your room that may be 1-3 circuits + 15 amp lighting runs. Dedicating a breaker or two just for your exclusive AV may be justified depending on power needs.

Just before Christmas I lost power for 4.5 days and when it came back on somehow my house transformer dumped a huge surge taking out GFCI outlets, ceiling fans, furnace controller AND my beloved Okto Dac. Surge went right through my (now older but expensive when I bought it) Furman conditioner/surge protector. Fortunately on the Okto it was just a simple fuse in the IEC plug inlet.

If it were me and I was going to invest in this sort of tech I'd go for a whole house system. I'm in N MI and lose power frequently so potential worse case scenario.

edit: just noted you plan to put the rack outside the room next to your panel - even easier just to give it a breaker or two.

Thanks, DWPress. The main sub-amp is a Crown 4x3500HD which requires a 30 amp circuit. The infrasonic sub-amp and each L/C/R is a Crown I-tech 5000HD (20 amp circuit). Add in a Crown 8 300N a 4 300N, the Surround Processor, Video Processor, Projector, miscellaneous players and streamers, 14 overhead lights, rope lighting, RGB spotlights, wall wash lighting, step lights, screen motor(s), circuits for theater seating, and the required outlets per code in the room (phew!), and I decided to just add a sub-panel by the AV rack to consolidate it all.

The surge scenario you described is what I’m most afraid of, followed by HVAC, washing machine, dryer, refrigerator and other equipment generating surges in the house… aside from an external surge, I just don’t know how big of a deal those other things actually are. I mean, I don’t know that I’ve ever had an electrical item fail due to a surge.

I’m also getting the sense that I’m not the only one who thinks the full recommended solutions is excessive.

I think I’ll skip the ground filter (whatever that’s supposed to do) go for the whole house surge protector for the sub-panel as woody suggested, and then figure out the rest (amp sequencing for power up, etc.) from there.

Thanks again for sharing your perspectives!

 

[escksu]

IMHO, if your home do not have any kind of surge protection installed, its a good idea to have one at least in your AV room (whole house is the best). In rare situations, power surge can take out electronic equipment. It can be very expensive to repair them, hence i would say it better to be on the safe side.

 

[mcdn]

Short answer: no, don't buy any of it. Do other things in your house fail because of electrical power issues? If not, why would you expect your hifi kit to fail? If yes, you need to fix your power supply! @BDWoody mentions doing the surge suppressor but doesn't say why. Is all this more of a concern in 110V countries like the US?

 

[escksu]

Short answer: no, don't buy any of it. Do other things in your house fail because of electrical power issues? If not, why would you expect your hifi kit to fail? If yes, you need to fix your power supply! @BDWoody mentions doing the surge suppressor but doesn't say why. Is all this more of a concern in 110V countries like the US?

Surge protector/suppressor is mainly used to protect your home from power surge. Although its quite rare these days (depending on where you live), there is a chance it can damage electronic equipment.

A lightning strike can cause a power surge and may cause serious damage. Its very rare but I do not see why we should take our chances esp. when surge protection equipment is rather inexpensive compared to the cost of the AV equipment.

 

[dasdoing]

fun fact: Here in Brazil the consumer protection laws force the dealership to compensate any damage caused by energy lines. As you can imagine it is quite a headache to proof, but I know a case where they recieved a new fridge

 

[TrevC]

Of course nothing on the power side has any effect on actual performance.

 

[Bugal1998]

Surge protector/suppressor is mainly used to protect your home from power surge. Although its quite rare these days (depending on where you live), there is a chance it can damage electronic equipment.

A lightning strike can cause a power surge and may cause serious damage. Its very rare but I do not see why we should take our chances esp. when surge protection equipment is rather inexpensive compared to the cost of the AV equipment.

Agreed, though I doubt these surge protectors would protect from a lightning strike.

 

[Bugal1998]

Of course nothing on the power side has any effect on actual performance.

Agreed!

Short answer: no, don't buy any of it. Do other things in your house fail because of electrical power issues? If not, why would you expect your hifi kit to fail? If yes, you need to fix your power supply! @BDWoody mentions doing the surge suppressor but doesn't say why. Is all this more of a concern in 110V countries like the US?

I don't expect it to fail, but the concentrated risk of loss if it did happen is unsettling. And also because I want this gear to last a long, loooong, time. I don't fully understand it, but I've read that internal surge protection (and lower cost protectors) can break down over time leading to eventual failure.

Again not convinced one way or another so I'm seeking some hopefully objective perspectives

 

[escksu]

Agreed, though I doubt these surge protectors would protect from a lightning strike.

Oh no, i dont meant a direct lightning strike. Its more of lightning strike on power transmission cables. Sometimes, a lightning strike nearby causes power to trip. I do agree it may not be enough.

 

[Holmz]

Agreed, though I doubt these surge protectors would protect from a lightning strike.

That is what those units at the central location do, that I mentioned up earlier in the thread… They have some device that smokes the AC to ground, and also the brown out disconnect or, etc.

So the whole house gets protected, washing machines, refridge, etc.

I would not worry about Back EMF from a motor causing some small spike… <— Those are lot like Thor blowing you a kiss from a lighening bolt.
Statistically, if you buy lottery tickets, you probably are mathematically better off getting one of those devices instead.
(I would not worry about the power grid itself per se.)