Innuos Phoenix USB Reclocker Review

[Old_School_Brad]

Clearly, I am in the wrong business. This thing has maybe $200 worth of parts in it, and the design engineering could be done by an unpaid intern. Even if you grant $500 for the cost of the case, the margin here is ENORMOUS, even higher than the Cartel makes from meth.

Perhaps the Cartel should go into the business of making audio gear like this - less legal risk and higher profits. Just sayin'

Maybe they already are?

 

[MingChops]

I am giving it credit that it does. Unlike the other regen I tested, it didn't fall apart with a horrid USB connection. This cost me nothing. What is suggested costs $100,000 in instrumentation. please justify that expense and i will make that investment.

Wouldn't the old Schiit Modi have served that purpose just fine? Show the Modi receiving a poor signal (which I believe has been done before hence it has been bought up a couple of times), and then again with the Innuos inline - that would show very concisely if it is correcting the USB signal or not.

I guess giving it credit that it works, is to my mind far too generous and not particularly scientific.

The logical order of events is a) test the product first, then b) prove even if it does work its a null and void issue in the first place.
Testing b) and omitting a) ... still leaves the question mark of it works or not.

That is such a pathological case. There is a specification and a certification process for USB cables and devices. Testing a $4,349 product that may or may not correct for a $3 USB cable transmission issues, when a $6 USB-certified cable is freely available that is guaranteed not to cause such errors, is just silly IMHO.

Not at all because it's merely a means in which to test if the product works or not, without spending 100k on equipment. Use a known device that gives the results we need in which to test against, fairly pragmatic and hopefully quick enough test to run. Then when it is known to work or not, move on to the validity tests that were performed.

As I just said back to amirm: "The logical order of events is a) test the product first, then b) prove even if it does work its a null and void issue in the first place."

 

[JSmith]

I note the manufacturer doesn't make any specific claims about this product... probably because they know it doesn't do anything useful. They have clearly been careful not to fall foul of various consumer laws.

All the snake oil claims on the product page are by "reviewers", but not stated by Innuos directly.

If they can't be bothered showing examples of where this product would be useful... well that says it all really doesn't it?

I don't see why @amirm needs to show for the company what this device does... that is up to them.


JSmith

 

[amirm]

Wouldn't the old Schiit Modi have served that purpose just fine?

To put after a $4,500 device???

 

[amirm]

The logical order of events is a) test the product first, then b) prove even if it does work its a null and void issue in the first place.
Testing b) and omitting a) ... still leaves the question mark of it works or not.

I did test the product as a one-port USB hub, i.e. repeater. It worked with good and bad USB signal. Quantifying beyond that as I explained repeatedly, costs a huge amount of money. I would spend the money but it matters now what the thing does to USB signal. It matters what it does to the analog output. I showed that it makes no difference there.

I mean, what are you going to do if I showed you that its eye pattern is 90% good vs 100%? Or that it tolerates 5% of random clock jitter? You are asking for things that are not going to tell you anything.

The purpose of this product is to improve audio fidelity. It did not do that in my first set of test. Running it again with a lousy cable was an attempt to give it some chance to show that it does something. In the process, I demonstrated that today's good DACs already handle incredibly poor signal quality so you don't even need it for that. Case is closed at that point.

 

[voodooless]

To put after a $4,500 device???

You should have used one of these:

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[amirm]

Use a known device that gives the results we need in which to test against, fairly pragmatic and hopefully quick enough test to run. Then when it is known to work or not, move on to the validity tests that were performed.

You are still not making sense. As I explained at the outset, this device cannot function as advertised due to DACs running asynchronously from the USB clock. You could search forever and it would never, ever do anything useful there. Because it can't. Yes, I do have a Modi 1 DAC that uses 5 volt without regulating it well. There, it would show some improvement but that type of DAC doesn't exist anymore except for a $10 one on Aliexpress. No customer of this product is thinking of this scenario.

 

[MingChops]

Yes, I do have a Modi 1 DAC that uses 5 volt without regulating it well. There, it would show some improvement

I am giving it credit that it does.

But would it have though? All myself and a few others are suggesting is it would have been good to see it tested with the Modi, so we don't have to "give it credit" and assume it does work - which is the antithesis of a site like this surely.
It boils down to why does a snake oil product like this get given an automatic assumption that it works, these sort of products should have no such luxury afforded to them that they work. I wouldn't be surprised if it did naff all to the signal, and the Modi test would have been a means to quantify that, that's all. (Look its no big deal and I see the value of the tests you have run, I'm not saying otherwise).

I get in the real world it makes no difference because the product shouldn't exist in the first place, and so this test can't make it any more irrelevant than it already is! But it would be good for completeness sake and ultimately to see just how badly Innuos are trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes, because if it could have been shown that it didn't even re-clock at all, that would be even more scandalous.

My measurements are more than sufficient to show it doesn't do anything for fidelity.

Your measurements show that it does nothing for fidelity in to any competent DAC that can handle USB properly, which whilst being 99.9% of use cases (or maybe higher than that even!)- that is not quite the same thing as simply showing if the product works or not, irrespective of the highly unlikely scenario of using one of these with such a poor choice of DAC.

 

[pkane]

Not at all because it's merely a means in which to test if the product works or not, without spending 100k on equipment

The product is not designed to be a reclocking device, that's what nearly all of USB hubs do already. In fact, that's part of a recommended hub implementation: a hub should recover incoming data and use its own clock to transmit it with a buffer in between, all the while, complying with USB spec jitter standards. $10 USB hubs do this already:



This particular device is designed as an audio-enhancement. A proper and only valid test is to determine if it improves audio, not whether it improves USB packet timing.

I wouldn't ask Amir to test the quantum effect of a speaker cable that claims to "transform the entire cable at a molecular level through a phenomenon called Quantum Tunneling". But I would ask him to test whether this "phenomenon" makes any audible/measurable difference at the audio output.

 

[MingChops]

The product is not designed to be a reclocking device

It's designed to be a "regenerating device" to use their lingo, noting it has a OCXO clock and again to use their lingo, it is designed to provide the function of three components, one of which being "an external master clock".

So is one of the functions of this device not that of an implied function of re-generating/re-clocking? (actual term being just semantics)?

 

[pkane]

It's designed to be a "regenerating device" to use their lingo, noting it has a OCXO clock and again to use their lingo, it is designed to provide the function of three components, one of which being "an external master clock".

So is one of the functions of this device not that of an implied function of re-generating/re-clocking? (actual term being just semantics)?

That's irrelevant, just like quantum tunneling effect of a speaker cable is irrelevant. This is an audio device, meant to enhance audio. Let's see if they can sell a single unit as a simple reclocking USB hub for $4.5k when others are sold for $10.

 

[BeeKay]

Let's see if they can sell a single unit as a simple reclocking USB hub for $4.5k when others are sold for $10.

Don’t bet your life on this

 

[pkane]

Don’t bet your life on this

"Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -attr. Albert Einstein

 

[MingChops]

That's irrelevant, just like quantum tunneling effect of a speaker cable is irrelevant.

Best straw man ever!

This is an audio device, meant to enhance audio.

Yes and as we're talking digital audio, the Modi test would have told us if it at least did do the job of removing jitter, would it not?
Innuos designers are suggesting it can re-generate and remove jitter - hence being a replacement for needing a master clock in their literature - and yet by testing it in to a decent DAC as was done, we don't technically know if the designers are making up that claim or not. It was decided that it would be assumed they are telling the truth here, I just wouldn't have personally made that level of assumption and I'd have been curious to test and ascertain as to if that was fact or not.

Now we know that USB is async and that straight away nullifies the need for this product and the need to even attempt any re-gen, but is beside the point I am trying to make. Which I believe I have stated quite clearly, but again, I am just idly curious to know if the designers have at least done the engineering side of this product right or not?

I don't understand why there's such vigorous objection to that simple suggestion of 'it would have been nice to see the Modi test', a pretty simple (hopefully not time consuming) test that would have added some additional data, that maybe a few like myself would have appreciated seeing.

Let's see if they can sell a single unit as a simple reclocking USB hub for $4.5k when others are sold for $10.

People buy audio Ethernet switches, which means they'll buy anything if the manufactures claim it'll do it.

 

[pkane]

Best straw man ever!


Yes and as we're talking digital audio, the Modi test would have told us if it at least did do the job of removing jitter, would it not?
Innuos designers are suggesting it can re-generate and remove jitter - hence being a replacement for needing a master clock in their literature - and yet by testing it in to a decent DAC as was done, we don't technically know if the designers are making up that claim or not. It was decided that it would be assumed they are telling the truth here, I just wouldn't have personally made that level of assumption and I'd have been curious to test and ascertain as to if that was fact or not.

Now we know that USB is async and that straight away nullifies the need for this product and the need to even attempt any re-gen, but is beside the point I am trying to make. Which I believe I have stated quite clearly, but again, I am just idly curious to know if the designers have at least done the engineering side of this product right or not?

I don't understand why there's such vigorous objection to that simple suggestion of 'it would have been nice to see the Modi test', a pretty simple (hopefully not time consuming) test that would have added some additional data, that maybe a few like myself would have appreciated seeing.


People buy audio Ethernet switches, which means they'll buy anything if the manufactures claim it'll do it.

This is an audio forum, dedicated to testing audio devices and their effect on audio. If you want to see tests of USB packet timing correctors, or quantum tunneling effects of a cable, you're in the wrong place.

 

[Thighsofsteel]

Clearly, I am in the wrong business. This thing has maybe $200 worth of parts in it, and the design engineering could be done by an unpaid intern. Even if you grant $500 for the cost of the case, the margin here is ENORMOUS, even higher than the Cartel makes from meth.

Perhaps the Cartel should go into the business of making audio gear like this - less legal risk and higher profits. Just sayin'

How do you know the cartels aren’t in the cables, fuses, usb clockers or audiophile network switches market? I am sure they are in the airport car parking business

 

[MingChops]

This is an audio forum, dedicated to testing audio devices and their effect on audio. If you want to see tests of USB packet timing correctors, or quantum tunneling effects of a cable, you're in the wrong place.

There's no need to be facetious. And you can stop trying to straw man with the phrase quantum tunnelling!

Look jitter has an effect on digital audio, and jitter is something this device purports to solve - but it was not tested as to if it can do what it says because it was assumed up front that this device would work as intended.

All I'm saying is it would be nice to see it pass or fail a test to disprove that claim, rather than assume it would pass and move straight to the tests that were run. - I don't understand why you're persistently arguing against having that extra test run, what is it about this extra test that you are so vehemently opposed to? In my view any test that means the avoidance of needing to make assumptions, is one worth running.

 

[Mart68]

How do you know the cartels aren’t in the cables, fuses, usb clockers or audiophile network switches market? I am sure they are in the airport car parking business

Cosa Nostra Audio. They make you a special offer you can't refuse.

 

[pkane]

There's no need to be facetious. And you can stop trying to straw man with the phrase quantum tunnelling!

Look jitter has an effect on digital audio, and jitter is something this device purports to solve - but it was not tested as to if it can do what it says because it was assumed up front that this device would work as intended.

All I'm saying is it would be nice to see it pass or fail a test to disprove that claim, rather than assume it would pass and move straight to the tests that were run. - I don't understand why you're persistently arguing against having that extra test run, what is it about this extra test that you are so vehemently opposed to? In my view any test that means the avoidance of needing to make assumptions, is one worth running.

Hehe. Quantum tunneling isn't my straw man -- that was a Synergistic Research claim for their speaker cables. What I am opposed to is asking others (Amir) to test every quack idea a fertile audiophile manufacturer's mind can come up with that has little to do with audio.

 

[testp]

How do you know the cartels aren’t in the cables, fuses, usb clockers or audiophile network switches market? I am sure they are in the airport car parking business

because of tolls & tariffs..