informal survey: how many Atmos users adhere to Dolby height speaker layout and performance recommendations?

[Tre2023]

Some had Surround speakers mounted high on a side or back wall years ago. Later, some added Surround Back Speakers mounted high on a back wall. Then, some added Front Height speakers for DPLIIZ.

Once Atmos came along, some with a DPLIIZ speaker configuration simply added a pair of ceiling mounted speakers and added an additional pair of speakers at or just above ear height for the Surround Back speakers as the former would be used for Rear Height speakers. The Surround speakers were then lowered to the level of the new Surround Back speakers resembling the configuration in Dolby’s own 7.1.6 illustration as posted by Newman.

There are some with units supporting AURO-3D and, preferring it to Dolby, may have opted for an AURO-3D 11.1 speaker configuration. Dolby Atmos signals, and DTS:X for that matter, will lock out the AURO-3D sound mode but outputting the signal as multichannel PCM from a disc player or certain streamers can get around the restriction.

I don’t want to leave out the precious few all in on 360 Reality Audio rockin’ 5.1.5.3 speaker configurations. Try not to stub a toe on those Bottom Front speakers.

 

[GS430man]

Dolby expects Atmos speakers to be in very specific areas of the room. Music and movie sound is mastered to those specifications.

Most consumer AVRs have outputs that are specifically mapped to a presumed channel location. The idea is the consumer will put the speakers in the right places, and cable them to the correct output, and make the correct choice of software configuration in the AVR.

I have no evidence, but I suspect that some consumer objections to Atmos stem from incorrectly placed speakers, improper connections to their gear, or incorrect software configuration. It is so very easy for us mere humans to make mistakes or take shortcuts (or not want to disrupt your room).

Higher end processors, such as Trinnov, accurately measure physical speaker positions in 3D and use that information to map Atmos (and other codec) outputs. Outputs can be mapped to any speaker or position. Calibration on a high end processor is much more complex than consumer AVRs unfortunately, but the upside is a much more realistic picture of the room and speaker characteristics, and typically a better sound presentation.

 

[-Matt-]

Dolby expects Atmos speakers to be in very specific areas of the room. Music and movie sound is mastered to those specifications.

Most consumer AVRs have outputs that are specifically mapped to a presumed channel location. The idea is the consumer will put the speakers in the right places, and cable them to the correct output, and make the correct choice of software configuration in the AVR.

I have no evidence, but I suspect that some consumer objections to Atmos stem from incorrectly placed speakers, improper connections to their gear, or incorrect software configuration. It is so very easy for us mere humans to make mistakes or take shortcuts (or not want to disrupt your room).

One of the main points of discussion so far in the thread has been how to make the right choices when configuring your AVR.

In an ideal world all the speakers would be positioned exactly as Dolby specifies; meanwhile, in the real world...

In my view it is probably best to look at the horizontal and vertical angles from the MLP to each speaker and use these to decide which channel it should be assigned as. Whether the speaker is mounted on the wall or ceiling shouldn't really make much difference.

So, if you have wall mounted rear heights that happen to be closer to the angles suggested for rear tops it probably makes sense to assign them as rear tops. (Including playback from the top channels likely maximises the perception of height in the soundscape because these channels have the highest vertical angle from MLP).

However, if I were to try configuring my wall mounted front heights (which are at a low vertical angle from the MLP) as front tops this would be exactly the sort of misconfiguration that would distort the soundscape slightly. (Which still wouldn't be a world ending catastrophe)!

 

[Soundmixer]

Note that the diagram says the number of overhead speakers for this setup is 6, and that this includes two in-ceiling and four height speakers.

Those who doubt that front and rear heights are part of Atmos should re-read the 2018 document with the knowledge that the term overhead speakers includes heights.

On the other hand Dolby do slightly contradict themselves with the following regarding front heights...
"Most AVRs will support the use of front height (Dolby® Pro Logic® IIz) mounted speakers with Dolby Atmos playback; however, we recommend the use of either overhead or Dolby Atmos enabled speakers to create the most lifelike and enveloping audio experience."

To me this does indicate a preference for ceiling mounted speakers (if possible) but certainly doesn't prescribe against the use of heights as part of an Atmos setup.

To keep some perspective, Dolby also say...
"Dolby Atmos is a highly flexible solution, so minor variations from these recommendations are unlikely to materially detract from the immersive Dolby Atmos experience."


The other document referenced here is for monitoring studio setup and therefore isn't necessarily applicable for home use.

I saw where there are examples of overhead, front, and rear wall Atmos speaker setups. That setup is not accommodated in the Dolby Mastering suite. What is accommodated is an example with 6 overhead speakers.

When you set up your Atmos speaker system, you have to go with setups that are most common in studios where remixes are done. Four studios do Atmos remixes for home entertainment, and not one of them (including mine) uses front/rear wall speakers with a single set of overhead speakers. Dolby is flexible, and minor variations are allowed. However, the front/rear wall with a single set of overheads would be a HUGE deviation from the studios that do the mixes. A minor deviation would be moving the overheads from 30 to 45 degrees. A minor deviation would be moving a single set of overheads slightly in front or behind the MLP.

 

[Soundmixer]

Help me to understand what are 7 and 9 in the following illustration by Dolby in their installation guidelines?

View attachment 525589

cheers

I don't know a studio that does Atmos mixes that utilizes this setup. When six overheads are used, this is the setup commonly used in Atmos-capable mixing rooms.

7.1.6 Overhead Speaker Setup

Learn how to place your 7.1.6 overhead speakers enabled with Dolby Atmos to optimize your home theater experience. Enjoy your favorite entertainment in Dolby.

www.dolby.com

 

[Soundmixer]

One of the main points of discussion so far in the thread has been how to make the right choices when configuring your AVR.

In an ideal world all the speakers would be positioned exactly as Dolby specifies; meanwhile, in the real world...

In my view it is probably best to look at the horizontal and vertical angles from the MLP to each speaker and use these to decide which channel it should be assigned as. Whether the speaker is mounted on the wall or ceiling shouldn't really make much difference.

So, if you have wall mounted rear heights that happen to be closer to the angles suggested for rear tops it probably makes sense to assign them as rear tops. (Including playback from the top channels likely maximises the perception of height in the soundscape because these channels have the highest vertical angle from MLP).

However, if I were to try configuring my wall mounted front heights (which are at a low vertical angle from the MLP) as front tops this would be exactly the sort of misconfiguration that would distort the soundscape slightly. (Which still wouldn't be a world ending catastrophe)!

If you use the front and rear wall placements, you will not be able to get the sound over your head. That is the whole purpose of Atmos. This is why Dolby recommends overhead placement over front and rear wall placements. Front/rear wall placements will cause objects to go up, not out into the room and overhead.

 

[Tre2023]

So, the real point of the thread is to figure out who is doing Dolby Atmos “Right” and who are doing it “Wrong”? I guess those with living room constraints who do not possess mixing or media rooms should hang it all up if they cannot duplicate the conditions in which the movie was mixed? Silly, especially considering just s#%ty many Dolby Atmos movie and music mixes happen to be these days. Perhaps a proper speakers configuration would somehow work magic on them?

 

[Soundmixer]

So, the real point of the thread is to figure out who is doing Dolby Atmos “Right” and who are doing it “Wrong”? I guess those with living room constraints who do not possess mixing or media rooms should hang it all up if they cannot duplicate the conditions in which the movie was mixed? Silly, especially considering just s#%ty many Dolby Atmos movie and music mixes happen to be these days. Perhaps a proper speakers configuration would somehow work magic on them?

I would say the real point is to stick with the conventional Dolby Atmos speaker setups, especially those configurations that mixing and mastering studios use. The reality is, folks, can do whatever they want in terms of speaker placement; there is no setup police. However, if you choose a placement that is not supported by the mixing and mastering tools, then understand you are not getting the intended spatial placement that the mixing engineer intended.

When Dolby first released their original speaker configurations, it was straightforward. However, to accommodate the music mixers, they later proposed additional overhead angles and additional positions to accommodate different room configurations. This IMO only served to confuse folks, which led to complaints that Atmos wasn't very good.

 

[BJL]

So, the real point of the thread is to figure out who is doing Dolby Atmos “Right” and who are doing it “Wrong”? I guess those with living room constraints who do not possess mixing or media rooms should hang it all up if they cannot duplicate the conditions in which the movie was mixed? Silly, especially considering just s#%ty many Dolby Atmos movie and music mixes happen to be these days. Perhaps a proper speakers configuration would somehow work magic on them?

I suspect that for most folks, some degree of compromise is necessary. I just tried to get a close as possible to the diagram in the the Dolby white paper within my physical limits, was careful about identifying the speaker positions correctly in my AVP, and patiently ran Dirac, kind of tiresome with 16 speakers.

I don't think that there is any reason to sweat the details or try and match the set up of a recording studio. Atmos is quite forgiving assuming that the speaker positions are identified correctly (tops vs heights, for example) and Dirac or similar is used, which takes care of distance deviations nicely. Excellent Atmos mixes sound great. Mediocre mixes sound - mediocre.

 

[Tre2023]

Well, then Dolby is to blame and nobody should feel a need to “adhere” to anything. To adhere to something means to stick to it like glue. If Dolby made accommodations and didn’t stick to it, why should anybody else feel obliged to do so?

You may as well have titled the thread “You Should Adhere to Dolby Height Speaker Layout and Performance Recommendations” as you seem to feel very strongly about it. This is not so much an informal survey thread but more an instruction thread.

Many have made placement concessions since 5.1 configurations came around and continue to do so with configurations featuring height speakers. Life goes on.

 

[Newman]

I shudder to think the results of a poll on the percentage who are listening to 2.0 with a listening angle of 60 degrees and symmetrically placed in the room.

Let's run around telling all the noncompliant "that's not stereo".

cheers

 

[antcollinet]

I don't know a studio that does Atmos mixes that utilizes this setup. When six overheads are used, this is the setup commonly used in Atmos-capable mixing rooms.

7.1.6 Overhead Speaker Setup

Learn how to place your 7.1.6 overhead speakers enabled with Dolby Atmos to optimize your home theater experience. Enjoy your favorite entertainment in Dolby.

www.dolby.com

We are not (primarily) talking about studios here though, but home reproduction setups.

 

[JRowland]

We are not (primarily) talking about studios here though, but home reproduction setups.

This is going in circles, home suggestions are the same.

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

And to clarify “we recommend” is noted multiple times, not sure how else Dolby can phrase it.

https://professional.dolby.com/siteassets/tv/home/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-for-home-theater.pdf

 

[Tre2023]

They also make a certain recommendation concerning overhead speakers:

So, how many are “adhering” to this particular recommendation? What, nobody using Genelec monitors all the way around? If not, you are out of compliance and are going to have a s#%t Atmos experience.

Dolby needs to worry less about Height speaker placement and more about dialogue placement in their s#%ty Dolby Surround up mixer. That thing bleeds like a stuck pig.

 

[BJL]

They also make a certain recommendation concerning overhead speakers:

View attachment 525891

So, how many are “adhering” to this particular recommendation? What, nobody using Genelec monitors all the way around? If not, you are out of compliance and are going to have a s#%t Atmos experience.

Dolby needs to worry less about Height speaker placement and more about dialogue placement in their s#%ty Dolby Surround up mixer. That thing bleeds like a stuck pig.

Easy peasy. I use a pair of identical 8 channel amplifiers (one for ear level, one for the Atmos positions), bought a set of identical speakers for the Atmos positions (six height, two wides), and ran Dirac Live calibration, worked perfectly. I presume that a single AVR would provide a similar result (matched amplifiers.)

I do not use ceiling mounts, and therefore I followed the speaker manufacturer's diagram and instructions for installing wall mounted height speakers designated as "top."

Atmos is easy for anyone who actually looks at the diagrams and follows them (or your equipment manufacturer's instructions.) It is definitely not necessary to install everything precisely following Dolby's diagrams. Dirac, or similar, will compensate for the distance deviations. The main problem with Atmos is that it can get expensive, time consuming to cable, and not everyone appreciates the esthetics of a room filled with speakers and associated equipment.

 

[Oddball]

Easy peasy. I use a pair of identical 8 channel amplifiers (one for ear level, one for the Atmos positions), bought a set of identical speakers for the Atmos positions (six height, two wides), and ran Dirac Live calibration, worked perfectly. I presume that a single AVR would provide a similar result (matched amplifiers.)

I do not use ceiling mounts, and therefore I followed the speaker manufacturer's diagram and instructions for installing wall mounted height speakers designated as "top."

Atmos is easy for anyone who actually looks at the diagrams and follows them (or your equipment manufacturer's instructions.) It is definitely not necessary to install everything precisely following Dolby's diagrams. Dirac, or similar, will compensate for the distance deviations. The main problem with Atmos is that it can get expensive, time consuming to cable, and not everyone appreciates the esthetics of a room filled with speakers and associated equipment.

There is some merit to distinguishing between speakers mounted as heights vs tops. If they achieve the same angles than it would really be a matter of trial and error to figure out if the top vs height AVP designation is more appropriate. Has more to do with how AVR/AVP handles that than with Dolby specs.

Not sure if I understand correctly - but you are using 8 heights in 6 height traditional configuration plus 2 height wides? Interested what is your AVP, seems like Storm or Trinnov?

 

[BJL]

There is some merit to distinguishing between speakers mounted as heights vs tops. If they achieve the same angles than it would really be a matter of trial and error to figure out if the top vs height AVP designation is more appropriate. Has more to do with how AVR/AVP handles that than with Dolby specs.

Not sure if I understand correctly - but you are using 8 heights in 6 height traditional configuration plus 2 height wides? Interested what is your AVP, seems like Storm or Trinnov?

I have eight SVS Ultra Elevations, with six designated top front, middle, back and mounted down firing positioned per the instructions in the SVS manual; plus two speakers mounted horizontally on opposite walls at ear level designated as front wide. Works great!

Just for curiosity, I set up two speaker configurations, one with just the 7.1 ear level, and one with all speakers 9.1.6 and ran Dirac separate for each configuration. I did not notice any difference in the eq applied to the ear level speakers (all Reve F206l) between the two configurations.

A Trinnov processor - in my dreams! I have an XMC-2, which was the only 9.1.6 processor that I could possibly afford, and despite all the bad reviews and comments in this forum, works very well for me.

 

[Oddball]

I have eight SVS Ultra Elevations, with six designated top front, middle, back and mounted down firing positioned per the instructions in the SVS manual; plus two speakers mounted horizontally on opposite walls at ear level designated as front wide. Works great!

Just for curiosity, I set up two speaker configurations, one with just the 7.1 ear level, and one with all speakers 9.1.6 and ran Dirac separate for each configuration. I did not notice any difference in the eq applied to the ear level speakers (all Reve F206l) between the two configurations.

A Trinnov processor - in my dreams! I have an XMC-2, which was the only 9.1.6 processor that I could possibly afford, and despite all the bad reviews and comments in this forum, works very well for me.

Well, I just thought that 8 height level speakers are only in Storm or Trinnov domain. Looks like you use 2 of them as standard FW, so that checks out.

Having the beds all around with Revel F206 is a pretty mighty setup so hope you enjoy.

There is obviously always the next upgrade in most cases, but more important is to enjoy what we have.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

That is correct—ceiling-mounted IS Atmos.

This is all clear to me now, due to the discussion in this thread, so thank you.

I've never used a format that required "Height" speakers, just ceiling bracket-mounted "Top" speakers, a set of four KEF Q150s aimed toward the main listening position and mounted on the ceiling at Dolby-recommended angles from the MLP. I'm reasonably sure my 7.0.4 setup follows Dolby Labs' instructions perfectly. My confusion is only a semantically one arising from this thread, and the fact that the back of my processor labels what I'll call "Atmos overhead speaker" outputs as "Height," and Dolby's own practice of sometimes using the terms "Height" and "Top" interchangeably. Maybe my processor could be used to drive "Height" speakers from those same outputs using a format that requires them? I have no idea, I never looked. (I've also seen references to "Presence" speakers mounted high on the front wall. Never used those, either.)

It appears that under current practice, outputs on a Dolby Atmos processor that are labeled "Height" could be used for "Height" speakers, OR for Atmos overhead speakers, unless otherwise instructed, depending on which format is being used.

 

[Soundmixer]

Well, then Dolby is to blame and nobody should feel a need to “adhere” to anything. To adhere to something means to stick to it like glue. If Dolby made accommodations and didn’t stick to it, why should anybody else feel obliged to do so?

You should adhere to their recommendations for ceiling speakers. They have stuck to that like glue. All of the other recommendations are for less-than-ideal situations where the ideal setup is not possible.

Many have made placement concessions since 5.1 configurations came around and continue to do so with configurations featuring height speakers. Life goes on.

Concessions are a part of the game. Some folks have to make profound concessions, others, not so much. If you make concessions, don't be surprised if you don't hear anything close to what was intended. The more you make, the less predictable your results.