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Infinity Primus 150 spinorama measurements (CTA-2034)

What are your thoughts about this speaker?

  • Very good

    Votes: 26 26.5%
  • Above average

    Votes: 45 45.9%
  • It's ok

    Votes: 24 24.5%
  • Below average

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • Poor

    Votes: 2 2.0%

  • Total voters
    98
When I was a kid; infinity speakers were highly regarded in the non audiophile world as good sounding speakers for a reasonable price.
If I remember correctly, Lexus actually made a GSF with infinity reference speakers in it.
 
Imagine if all of today's so-called audio "experts" would have to do blind tests of the speakers they review. Consumers would get a lot more useful buying advice...

Infinity seems to have been ahead of their time back in the day. I never knew they made stuff this good until recently people started posting measurements - thanks OP for your contribution. This is great news for us bargain hunters. There's a listing for a set of basically new Primus 363 towers close to me for $200 that I'm thinking about picking up.
Please make sure the tweeters are working. They are difficult to find, though other Infinities use the same tweeters but with different sized face plates, so you could buy a pair of them for parts.

I bought a pair used and wondered why they sounded strange (no bass and phasy). It turned out that one speaker was wired out of phase internally.
 
A little history:

The JBL SoundEffects system resulted from a program led by Allan Devantier, who was hired from Canada for the project. The product was developed using the new measurement system and double-blind listening facility that the new Harman Research group had set up under my guidance. It sounded impressively neutral, especially at the price, setting the stage for Allan's continued employment in Harman engineering groups.

When Harman purchased Infinity it had no measurement facility, relying on 1/3-octave steady-state measurements in ordinary rooms. When at the NRCC in Canada before joining Harman in 1991 I had tested several Infinity models, submitted by Canadian audio magazines for review - done showing anechoic measurements and involving double-blind listening by the reviewers, unique at the time, I believe. When an expensive high-end loudspeaker got a negative review Infinity threatened legal action. Who were these mere Canadians to criticize the mighty, Infinity? A mediator was selected and there would be a showdown of their evidence vs. our evidence, with the results to be published. Their total "evidence" was a single 1/3-octave, staircase style, room curve. We had comprehensive 360-degree 1/20-octave anechoic data that revealed several engineering lapses. There was a shuffling of chairs and they decided to withdraw the challenge. The negative review stood.

When I joined Harman, Infinity had begun construction of an anechoic chamber, but the engineers were hangovers from the "golden ear" school of design, and needed education. For a few years Laurie Fincham, assisted by Andrew Jones, both ex. KEF, led design, but they didn't integrate well with the Harman corporate system, and the group was disbanded.

Allan Devantier was then chosen to head the next-generation Infinity loudspeaker design team, and from that point on there were numerous examples of high audio performance at affordable prices, up to and including, Interlude models and the top-of-the line Infinity Prelude MTS, a loudspeaker that exemplified the performance standard for several years. All these products benefitted from comprehensive anechoic measurements and double-blind listening tests. It is no accident that they measure well and sound good, even by today's standards, as is shown in measurements in this forum. Good sound is good sound. It is the result of competent engineering, not magic ingredients or golden ears. Knowing what to measure and how to interpret the data is the key. My books summarize the science.

Allan eventually joined my research group, contributed to the development of the industry standard CTA-2034 standard measurement scheme: the spinorama, and collaborated with Todd Welti in multiple subwoofer configurations for controlling room resonances. He now leads a group of engineers at Samsung (who now own Harman) designing TV centric audio systems, possibly the most active and technically progressive part of the loudspeaker industry at present. I have heard some very impressive sound bars. Science works.
 
Here's a teardown:

View attachment 436973


24dB/octave crossover (according the the specs):

View attachment 436974

Tweeter:

View attachment 436975

Woofer (magnetically shielded):

View attachment 436976

No damping material at the bottom of the cabinet:

View attachment 436977

Short port (1 inch / 2.5 cm):

View attachment 436978


I added some extra damping material:

View attachment 436985


it improved the port response a bit:

(Heating pump running in the background. Please ignore the small peaks at ~45 Hz)

View attachment 436986

It didn't improve the woofer response though:

View attachment 436987

Port open vs closed (with the added damping material):

View attachment 436994
Are the inductors ferrite or laminated steel. Replace the tweeter circuit electrolytics with film capacitors should improve sonics.
 
Here is my take on the EQ.
Please report your findings, positive or negative!

Thanks!

Went through a Youtube playlist with various "acoustic" performances, switching between the LW and Score presets. All of a sudden, two hours had passed.

The slightly "cold" character is gone, and it sounds warm, open and detailed. If I didn't know already, I would never have guessed that this was a $100 speaker (I'm listening to one speaker).

The illusion breaks when there's deep bass of course.

They will replace Monitor Audio Silver RX1 in my bedroom. The Primus (Primuses? ;) ) are just on another level, much closer to Revel M16 (with EQ applied).
 
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Are the inductors ferrite or laminated steel. Replace the tweeter circuit electrolytics with film capacitors should improve sonics.
Any component replacement/improvement scheme can improve sound quality only if it improves the anechoic measured performance of the loudspeaker. In many cases such replacements change the measurements, and therefore the sound. Is it an improvement? Psychologically, there is an expectation that more expensive capacitors and air-core inductors should sound better - lower non-linear distortion - but the reality is that what we hear is dominated by linear behavior: amplitude vs. frequency response. Even phase response is not audible. So, if the original electrolytic capacitors have deteriorated, a not uncommon phenomenon in old loudspeakers, it might - might - be enough just to replace them with new versions, assuming that the right values can be found. Otherwise the loudspeaker is being redesigned without the benefit of trustworthy engineering measurements. If such measurements are available, then have at it, and you might indeed improve the sound.

But humans are flawed, and if we believe we hear something, often we do.
 
Thank you Floyd for the piece of history!

I still have some Infinity Alpha series speakers that I bought in 2002-3, they were lowest grade models and made in Denmark for European market. Below some homebrewed measurements

Infinitt A20.jpginfinity a20 0-90¤ 9ms 13.pngInfinity A20 in Hamming 30ms 16 norm 90deg (hor).pngInfinity A20 spl w t  5ms 124.jpgInfinity A20 W disto.jpg
 
Ah the good ol' days.

View attachment 437346

View attachment 437345




I’m a fan of Infinity speakers. A BIG fan. In my mind, during their heyday Infinity produced some of the finest speakers ever made. If the only Infinities you’ve heard are the mass-market junk at Circuit City, then you haven’t heard good Infinities. Here’s my collection of vintage Infinity speakers (this page is a work in process). I still have a few Infinities I really want to complete my collection, but here’s what I have right now.


Reference: https://www.davidsaudio.com/html/vintage_infinity__speakers_and.html
I had a pair of Kappa 8's for a few years, sadly destroyed during a move.

A great speaker for sure but a bit of a difficult load, back when they seemed to not care about impedance so much ;)
 
It is the result of competent engineering, not magic ingredients or golden ears.
I :) at your statement's last part.
I've never had a lapse of music - for more than 30 days - in my adult life ... yet sadly, I don't even think I qualify as 'trained ears'!
 
I had a pair of Kappa 8's for a few years, sadly destroyed during a move.

A great speaker for sure but a bit of a difficult load, back when they seemed to not care about impedance so much ;)
From what I've heard doing the limited research you can on decade's old speakers, the kappa line had some seriously good entries... I know I'm going to sound a bit repetitive, but my early 90s era Crescendo books (model 3006) that I found on a sidewalk a few yrs ago are very decent speakers, I'd love to let Erin or Amir measure them , but shipping costs are prohibitive right now, my only quarrel with them is tubby bass that I think is created by the port ( i have stuffed the port,it seems to help)...
 
A little history:

The JBL SoundEffects system resulted from a program led by Allan Devantier, who was hired from Canada for the project. The product was developed using the new measurement system and double-blind listening facility that the new Harman Research group had set up under my guidance. It sounded impressively neutral, especially at the price, setting the stage for Allan's continued employment in Harman engineering groups.

When Harman purchased Infinity it had no measurement facility, relying on 1/3-octave steady-state measurements in ordinary rooms. When at the NRCC in Canada before joining Harman in 1991 I had tested several Infinity models, submitted by Canadian audio magazines for review - done showing anechoic measurements and involving double-blind listening by the reviewers, unique at the time, I believe. When an expensive high-end loudspeaker got a negative review Infinity threatened legal action. Who were these mere Canadians to criticize the mighty, Infinity? A mediator was selected and there would be a showdown of their evidence vs. our evidence, with the results to be published. Their total "evidence" was a single 1/3-octave, staircase style, room curve. We had comprehensive 360-degree 1/20-octave anechoic data that revealed several engineering lapses. There was a shuffling of chairs and they decided to withdraw the challenge. The negative review stood.

When I joined Harman, Infinity had begun construction of an anechoic chamber, but the engineers were hangovers from the "golden ear" school of design, and needed education. For a few years Laurie Fincham, assisted by Andrew Jones, both ex. KEF, led design, but they didn't integrate well with the Harman corporate system, and the group was disbanded.

Allan Devantier was then chosen to head the next-generation Infinity loudspeaker design team, and from that point on there were numerous examples of high audio performance at affordable prices, up to and including, Interlude models and the top-of-the line Infinity Prelude MTS, a loudspeaker that exemplified the performance standard for several years. All these products benefitted from comprehensive anechoic measurements and double-blind listening tests. It is no accident that they measure well and sound good, even by today's standards, as is shown in measurements in this forum. Good sound is good sound. It is the result of competent engineering, not magic ingredients or golden ears. Knowing what to measure and how to interpret the data is the key. My books summarize the science.

Allan eventually joined my research group, contributed to the development of the industry standard CTA-2034 standard measurement scheme: the spinorama, and collaborated with Todd Welti in multiple subwoofer configurations for controlling room resonances. He now leads a group of engineers at Samsung (who now own Harman) designing TV centric audio systems, possibly the most active and technically progressive part of the loudspeaker industry at present. I have heard some very impressive sound bars. Science works.

Thank you Floyd,

History and wisdom is actually quite important, as is science.
The part of the problem challenge today that's it's arguably even harder for people to understand.

A quarter of a decade ago there was a very good speaker, the Infinity Interlude IL60.
You run your speaker cables to it and it splits off the signal to a built-in powered subwoofer. This came out in 1999, IIRC.
Here are some images I found:
Front-

1742445578219.png
1742445607844.png
1742445625394.png



The 12" woofer was crossed to a 6.5" mid-woofer, at 150Hz, which is entirely appropriate for a side facing subwoofer. There a 3 drivers on the front baffle which is shaped to minimised diffraction and resonances. The 6.5" mid-woofer, 4" midrange, and 1" tweeter were crossed at 500Hz & 2800Hz LR4.

This might be double dutch to some readers, but my point is, the cabinet and baffle shape, the driver sizes, placement on baffle, and crossover frequencies allow smooth directivity transitions and very easy/comfortable operating ranges for all drivers

Here is a closer pic which better illustrates thr the baffle facets, mild waveguide for the tweeter. Also note the matching centre channel-with the correct Woofer-tweeter above mid-Woofer layout. You know, designed with the science of directivity in mind

1742445312784.png


Reference:


An experienced loudspeaker designer can take a glance at this and understand that the polar measurement would be difficult to fault.

The amplitude modulation distortion and Barkhausen noise would also be minimal, thanks to the 4-way design.

In 2025, we would separate the subwoofers from the TMW upper section, and use multi sub and bass equalisation to get a sonic advantage.

Now I don't know whether it was a great sales success, but it certainly deserved more exposure than products that were getting the accolades.

Here is a speaker in a simple rectangular box, with a pair of a 7" midwoofers crossover a 1" tweeter at 1" at 3KHz. It comes wrapped in your choice of exquisite timber (endangered species veneers) and were sold to export markets (ie. in demand, willing to pay top price) for just $7,200 USD in 2000 (US$13,000 today)

25 years later, perhaps some of our ASR readers can point out the downside of this approach:

1742439219491.png

Reference:

Instead of criticising such a design, the New York based Stereophile praised it.
Who inside the industry is asking the questions? Or does anything go?

Has anything has changed? Or has is, in fact, gotten worse:

A big battery for your hifi, at only $50,000 for the basic version?

It seems we are still measuring poorly designed high priced speakers-

Hats off to armir for debunking power conditioners, op-amp rolling.

But why did he have to spend his valuable time doing this in the first place?

Meanwhile we are still measuring/displaying speaker distortion incorrectly e.g. THD, yet simultaneously measuring distortion in things that reached sonic transparency decades ago. eg. DACs

Does science and evidence translate to people "getting it" a quarter a century later?

One could argue that that is getting harder every year...

... and now I'm not even talking about speakers anymore...
 
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i had the alpha bookshelf speakers for a while.. they were decent, but they had some audible "hollow" sound that i would now describe as lower mid suck out.. if anything they tended to be , to my ears a bit bright.. the beta's were reported to be extremely similar in f.r. ....
The Alphas came out of Harman's Europe office and didn't use Dr. Toole's approach including double-blind testing in the design process. The Betas, developed in Northridge, quickly replaced the Alphas, easily outperforming them and many other speakers on the market in blind listening tests. The Beta's also has a patented wave guide. This is all per Patrick Hart the Beta series designer.
 
The Betas, developed in Northridge, quickly replaced the Alphas, easily outperforming them and many other speakers on the market in blind listening tests
I never saw really positive reviews of Betas.
1742587166620.png

This is Beta 50, 3-way floorstander
And below (purple trace) is Beta 10, successor of Alpha 10
1742587347907.png

 
The Alphas came out of Harman's Europe office and didn't use Dr. Toole's approach including double-blind testing in the design process. The Betas, developed in Northridge, quickly replaced the Alphas, easily outperforming them and many other speakers on the market in blind listening tests. The Beta's also has a patented wave guide. This is all per Patrick Hart the Beta series designer.
This is good to know, thanks:)
 
A little history:

The JBL SoundEffects system resulted from a program led by Allan Devantier, who was hired from Canada for the project. The product was developed using the new measurement system and double-blind listening facility that the new Harman Research group had set up under my guidance. It sounded impressively neutral, especially at the price, setting the stage for Allan's continued employment in Harman engineering groups.

When Harman purchased Infinity it had no measurement facility, relying on 1/3-octave steady-state measurements in ordinary rooms. When at the NRCC in Canada before joining Harman in 1991 I had tested several Infinity models, submitted by Canadian audio magazines for review - done showing anechoic measurements and involving double-blind listening by the reviewers, unique at the time, I believe. When an expensive high-end loudspeaker got a negative review Infinity threatened legal action. Who were these mere Canadians to criticize the mighty, Infinity? A mediator was selected and there would be a showdown of their evidence vs. our evidence, with the results to be published. Their total "evidence" was a single 1/3-octave, staircase style, room curve. We had comprehensive 360-degree 1/20-octave anechoic data that revealed several engineering lapses. There was a shuffling of chairs and they decided to withdraw the challenge. The negative review stood.

When I joined Harman, Infinity had begun construction of an anechoic chamber, but the engineers were hangovers from the "golden ear" school of design, and needed education. For a few years Laurie Fincham, assisted by Andrew Jones, both ex. KEF, led design, but they didn't integrate well with the Harman corporate system, and the group was disbanded.

Allan Devantier was then chosen to head the next-generation Infinity loudspeaker design team, and from that point on there were numerous examples of high audio performance at affordable prices, up to and including, Interlude models and the top-of-the line Infinity Prelude MTS, a loudspeaker that exemplified the performance standard for several years. All these products benefitted from comprehensive anechoic measurements and double-blind listening tests. It is no accident that they measure well and sound good, even by today's standards, as is shown in measurements in this forum. Good sound is good sound. It is the result of competent engineering, not magic ingredients or golden ears. Knowing what to measure and how to interpret the data is the key. My books summarize the science.

Allan eventually joined my research group, contributed to the development of the industry standard CTA-2034 standard measurement scheme: the spinorama, and collaborated with Todd Welti in multiple subwoofer configurations for controlling room resonances. He now leads a group of engineers at Samsung (who now own Harman) designing TV centric audio systems, possibly the most active and technically progressive part of the loudspeaker industry at present. I have heard some very impressive sound bars. Science works.
Sorry to impose with such a trivial question sir, but do you recall who designed the crescendo line in the early 90s?.. And are you aware of any reliable measurements anywhere.. I can't find either.. I happened to acquire a pair of 3006's by pure chance and can't find much if any reliable info... Thanks
 
It's a 3-way speaker with a 8"/4"/1" with XO points 350Hz and 3000Hz, so the directivity transition will be smooth, and the amplitude modulation distortion will be low.
It'll be similar to something like the Wharfedale Lintons, as long as nobody screwed up the crossover design.

Have you considered measuring it yourself?
 
It's a 3-way speaker with a 8"/4"/1" with XO points 350Hz and 3000Hz, so the directivity transition will be smooth, and the amplitude modulation distortion will be low.
It'll be similar to something like the Wharfedale Lintons, as long as nobody screwed up the crossover design.

Have you considered measuring it yourself?
i don't have rew or similar software at the moment.. but yes it has crossed my mind .. thanks for the info..:)
 
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