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Increase (electrical) Damping of a Driver

The Hypex has 7 dB higher max output (440 W vs 86 W). A usable 7 dB vs a 7 dB that doesn't matter.

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Well there you go. I did surprise me, and this now does NOT surprise me. Hypex does their own measurements and shows them on their website. When you look at them you'll think they're simulated. They are not!
 
The B200 has more power but still with a 120 SINAD.
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So de DF is not so much a quality of the amp as it is an indication measure of how well feedback and loop gain are implemented.
Not necessarily. You can have tons of feedback and loop gain and still have significant output impedance by design for a variety of reasons.
And you can have very low output impedance also with only very moderate feedback.
 
One can design amplifier with negative output resistance. It can reduce total resistance of speaker circuit and increase electrical damping. That design include positive feedback, which can lead to instability. Practically negative resistance is limited to low frequency and its value can only be a fraction of speaker resistance. That's kind of limited solution.
Negative output impedance is only one crude way to make more use of the back-EMF, the microphonic voltage. There are more elaborate schemes that can handle, for example, the varying DC resistance of the VC with temperature. Also provided that the reactive part of the impedance is stable one can well compensate for that as well.

Speaker design is based on resonance. You shouldn't damp it, because you will damage frequency response. Speaker at lowest frequency works kind of like instrument. Adding a negative resistance would be similar to putting wool inside a violin. Unreasonable, unless you design a set consisting of amplifier and speaker.
There is zero damage on the frequency response. You simply EQ it to the desired target and obviously, same frequency response as seen by the driver terminals gives exact same SPL frequency response -- we did not change the driver, after all.
It is true that simple negative output impedance is not very useful for a generic amplifier, like any other non-zero output impedance because generic speakers are designed to be used with a voltage source. The reason for this "zero ohms standard interface" is simply convention, not any real technical advantage.
 
The Transducer Engineer sets Qts with Beta = [Bl(x)]^2/Re(T)
Actually, for the transducer designers who are "source impedance aware" it turns into beta = (BL)²/(Rout+Re). Until we finally have superconductors at room temperature the beta factors B² and L²/Re (the latter being proportional to the amount of copper in the gap, in the end) is brickwalling beta. We can only "outsource" some part of this parasitic resistance into a negative resistance and try take care of the side-effects.

----:----

A proper engineering definition of a usable and relevant damping factor would be df = Re / (Rout + Re). The baseline, a factor of 1, is the "natural" damping as seen with standard voltage drive.
 
OK! Usable 3.7 dB vs useless 7 dB then.

My application is an active loudspeaker with a Radian 6CRF5130 - 6.5” coaxial with planar ribbon HF (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0111/0324/0254/files/6CRF5130-data-sheet.pdf?1165) with gold plated ferrous binding posts replaced with copper fishtail lugs and nylon fasteners in an acoustic resistive enclosure . The Topping B100 drives the ribbon, while the B200 drives the low frequency cone transducer. There is also an active cardioid woofer (Woofer - Coaxial - Woofer) array with 2 x Hotroded (added bucking magnets) 10" Peerless XLS woofers and 1 x Hotroded 10" Peerless XLS anti woofer in equalized sealed tubes, 3 x 25 liter. A miniDSP FLEX Htx is the processor et al. All interconnects are balanced. The 2 ohm (parallel) woofers and the 4 ohm anti woofer are driven by Fosi V3 Monoblocks. Topping and Fosi products are readily available at competitive prices in Thailand with good warranty service.
 
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Actually, for the transducer designers who are "source impedance aware" it turns into beta = (BL)²/(Rout+Re). Until we finally have superconductors at room temperature the beta factors B² and L²/Re (the latter being proportional to the amount of copper in the gap, in the end) is brickwalling beta. We can only "outsource" some part of this parasitic resistance into a negative resistance and try take care of the side-effects.

Peerless is one of only a few transducer manufacturers that specify Beta within their spec sheets. Here's a link to the 10 inch XLS spec sheet (https://www.wagneronline.com.au/att...L6stbGY0jstR6GVNWFX07onKEhcSViJpeZyJDC_cVpDwu) where Beta = 59.2 (N^2/W). Beta is a transducer parameter with that terminology originating at BOSE. The source impedance is unknown and cannot be considered within the transducers' specifications. However, Beta is a figure of merit for transducer motor performance, regardless of the source impedance.

Note that the Hotrod 10" XLS's have a Beta > 65 (N^2/W).
 
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Peerless is one of only a few transducer manufacturers that specify Beta within their spec sheets. Here's a link to the 10 inch XLS spec sheet (https://www.wagneronline.com.au/att...L6stbGY0jstR6GVNWFX07onKEhcSViJpeZyJDC_cVpDwu) where Beta = 59.2 (N^2/W). Beta is a transducer parameter with that terminology originating at BOSE. The source impedance is unknown and cannot be considered within the transducers' specifications. However, Beta is a figure of merit for transducer motor performance, regardless of the source impedance.
Well, since normally both BL and Re are given there is no need to redundantly state beta.
I fully agree it is a good figure of merit for the motor.

One aspect of the (BL)²/Re formula is that L is the length of the conductor inside the magnetic field whereas Re is the total resistance for the coil. In the (normal) case of overhung drivers this neatly explains why long stroke drivers have a hard time reaching large beta and have larger heat losses. I once was in discussion with driver design experts to create a driver with multi-sectioned voice-coils (together with position sensing) so that end sections that don't contribute to force are switched off / faded out (shorted). It was too complicated to practically design at the time but the consensus was this would be a nice feature to best exploit what a motor is capable of.
 
Not necessarily. You can have tons of feedback and loop gain and still have significant output impedance by design for a variety of reasons.
And you can have very low output impedance also with only very moderate feedback.
OK, in that case let's view my comments as striving for being that friend of mine, who always inspires new idea's in my head on the subject under research, the fact he actually doesn't understand what is really going on notwithstanding.
 
Negative output impedance is only one crude way to make more use of the back-EMF, the microphonic voltage. There are more elaborate schemes that can handle, for example, the varying DC resistance of the VC with temperature. Also provided that the reactive part of the impedance is stable one can well compensate for that as well.


There is zero damage on the frequency response. You simply EQ it to the desired target and obviously, same frequency response as seen by the driver terminals gives exact same SPL frequency response -- we did not change the driver, after all.
It is true that simple negative output impedance is not very useful for a generic amplifier, like any other non-zero output impedance because generic speakers are designed to be used with a voltage source. The reason for this "zero ohms standard interface" is simply convention, not any real technical advantage.
So in the end, what does the load-invariant frequency response of Putzeys power amps accomplish? That does not flatten out a speaker that would normally have very erratic FR w/a non-load invariant amp (which would make sense to my limited intellect)?
 
My application is an active loudspeaker with a Radian 6CRF5130 - 6.5” coaxial with planar ribbon HF (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0111/0324/0254/files/6CRF5130-data-sheet.pdf?1165) with gold plated ferrous binding posts replaced with copper fishtail lugs and nylon fasteners in an acoustic resistive enclosure . The Topping B100 drives the ribbon, while the B200 drives the low frequency cone transducer. There is also an active cardioid woofer (Woofer - Coaxial - Woofer) array with 2 x Hotroded (added bucking magnets) 10" Peerless XLS woofers and 1 x Hotroded 10" Peerless XLS anti woofer in equalized sealed tubes, 3 x 25 liter. A miniDSP FLEX Htx is the processor et al. All interconnects are balanced. The 2 ohm (parallel) woofers and the 4 ohm anti woofer are driven by Fosi V3 Monoblocks. Topping and Fosi products are readily available at competitive prices in Thailand with good warranty service.
I wasn't aware that you already have an application in mind, and you were referring to your design instead of for general use. In your case, the extra power of the NCx500 is wasted on the HF driver and the B200 should be a fine match for the LF driver too. However, I am also quite sure that the NCx500 will work just as well in your application, perhaps not as cost effective and/or convenient to source in Thailand (even though the NCx500 are probably made next door in Malaysia).

Anyhow, you know much more on loudspeaker system design than me. Sorry for interrupting.
 
So in the end, what does the load-invariant frequency response of Putzeys power amps accomplish? That does not flatten out a speaker that would normally have very erratic FR w/a non-load invariant amp (which would make sense to my limited intellect)?
In the class-D regime, load-invariant frequency response at high frequencies is one of the most important design goals simpler designs with weak or absent post-filter feedback cannot achieve. By this class-D finally can compete with linear A/B.
 
For almost 40 years, copper rings or copper caps have been used in loudspeaker motor systems to reduce voice coil inductance and to minimize inductance modulation and back CEMF effects. Their use typically results in significantly lower distortion, often on the order of about 10 dB.
In addition, modern loudspeaker designs aim to keep the Bl (force factor) as linear as possible over excursion, so that the relationship between Bl and cone displacement remains stable. This prevents additional distortion when the speaker is driven louder or at larger excursions.
 
For almost 40 years, copper rings or copper caps have been used in loudspeaker motor systems to reduce voice coil inductance and to minimize inductance modulation and back CEMF effects. Their use typically results in significantly lower distortion, often on the order of about 10 dB.
Shorting means in form of copper rings and caps or even full sleeves are know for decades and are very effective at mid and high frequencies but at LF they do almost nothing, notably for flux modulation. Either you apply some balancing counter flux with a static helper coil or make sure the magnetic circuit is saturated so it cannot be modulated any more (the latter is what Purifi does: https://purifi-audio.com/blog/tech-notes-1/some-speaker-problems-that-needed-solving-1)
In addition, modern loudspeaker designs aim to keep the Bl (force factor) as linear as possible over excursion, so that the relationship between Bl and cone displacement remains stable. This prevents additional distortion when the speaker is driven louder or at larger excursions.
Definitely. Modern driver designs like from Purifi even use varying winding pitch on the VC to get a flatter BL(x) over the widest possible range (https://purifi-audio.com/ushindi)

At very low frequencies, and especially below resonance, the suspension nonlinearity can be a significant contributor to distortion and then increased damping (increased velocity feedback in the driver itself) can do good things.
 
In the class-D regime, load-invariant frequency response at high frequencies is one of the most important design goals simpler designs with weak or absent post-filter feedback cannot achieve. By this class-D finally can compete with linear A/B.
Tx KSTR, learning all the time.

So this is not (or less) important in the LF range? (The FR range i was, until now, under the impression unlinear response is generally regarded the most problematic, or at least the hardest to tame..)
 
For Hypex it may be with marketing in mind, but it remains based on claims Bruno himself publishes, in peer reviewed white papers and review confirmed measurents. [...] So if anyone has anything to disprove it, show it
Not sure about Hypex in particular, but white papers published by for-profit businesses aren't generally peer reviewed. In any case, the claims by the AI about the benefit of the feedback design and resulting ultra-low output impedance on diaphragm motion are largely incorrect. This is evident from the basic physics: once the output impedance is a small fraction of the voice coil resistance, pushing it ever closer to zero provides no meaningful benefit in terms of motional control.
Additionally, the points about the "fast response" of the feedback loop improving control of diaphragm motion are nonsense. Significantly above its low-frequency resonance, an electrodynamic driver's back EMF is more-or-less orthogonal to the coil velocity so electrical damping is useless. In fact, due to inductance modulation, low driving impedance is usually actively detrimental in a driver's mid band—the back EMF is distorted, so high electrical damping actually increases the error vs low damping.

So, in short, the feedback loop design is critical to achieving the very low distortion figures and high degree of load invariance you see with Bruno's power amp designs. Claims of meaningfully improved motional control of loudspeaker drivers compared to other amps with reasonably low output impedance are largely nonsense or misleading.
 
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Shorting means in form of copper rings and caps or even full sleeves are know for decades and are very effective at mid and high frequencies but at LF they do almost nothing, notably for flux modulation. Either you apply some balancing counter flux with a static helper coil or make sure the magnetic circuit is saturated so it cannot be modulated any more (the latter is what Purifi does: https://purifi-audio.com/blog/tech-notes-1/some-speaker-problems-that-needed-solving-1)

Definitely. Modern driver designs like from Purifi even use varying winding pitch on the VC to get a flatter BL(x) over the widest possible range (https://purifi-audio.com/ushindi)

At very low frequencies, and especially below resonance, the suspension nonlinearity can be a significant contributor to distortion and then increased damping (increased velocity feedback in the driver itself) can do good things.
Wow, great article quote!

Seems about time to make a switch to Thiele/Small/Tinggaard parameters. I'm sure our pistonic driver engineer Smowry also found this a fascinating topic.

Finally a bunch of researchers that carefully looks into the actual problems voltage/current-to-soundwave transducers still present. The ones mentioned in the article are all obvious, yet no one ever thought to address them.

Putzeys feels probably right at home there, since this i what he did in amp&PS-circuit-land.
 
Significantly above its low-frequency resonance, an electrodynamic driver's back EMF is more-or-less orthogonal to the coil velocity so electrical damping is useless.
Ahem, the microphonic voltage of a VC is always proportional to velocity at all frequencies. The non-resistive, rather (semi-)inductive V/I-transfer impedance is the problem here, make the resulting force lag behind.
 
Not sure about Hypex in particular, but white papers published by for-profit businesses aren't generally peer reviewed. In any case, the claims by the AI about the benefit of the feedback design and resulting ultra-low output impedance on diaphragm motion are largely incorrect. This is evident from the basic physics: once the output impedance is a small fraction of the voice coil resistance, pushing it ever closer to zero provides no meaningful benefit in terms of motional control.
Additionally, the points about the "fast response" of the feedback loop improving control of diaphragm motion are nonsense. Significantly above its low-frequency resonance, an electrodynamic driver's back EMF is more-or-less orthogonal to the coil velocity so electrical damping is useless. In fact, due to inductance modulation, low driving impedance is usually actively detrimental in a driver's mid band—the back EMF is distorted, so high electrical damping actually increases the error vs low damping.

So, in short, the feedback loop design is critical to achieving the very low distortion figures and high degree of load invariance you see with Bruno's power amp designs. Claims of meaningfully improved motional control of loudspeaker drivers compared to other amps with reasonably low output impedance are largely nonsense or misleading.
Thanks for your clear explanation. But also please note we were already at the point the DF itself was not a factor of increased control, but an indication of it, because it rises as a side effect of effective negative feedback and loop gain application, which, as you indicate, DOES improve load-invariant response and thereby pistonic driver behavior. Am i getting it right now?

Incidentally you'll probably also like the Purifi article (probably by Tinggaard) KSTR quoted a few posts back. Someone is finally addressing the speaker, which sofar remains one of the worst behaving parts in the audio chain.

Tx for your input, i am trying to have a low output impedance myself, in order to absorb all feedback and use it to correct my response.. slowly getting there

Cheers!
 
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