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Increase (electrical) Damping of a Driver

Any speakers you like that are “fast” in the way they start and stop?
A smaller-lighter driver should have less inertia. But for bass you need piston area and speakers with multiple small drivers have their own issues/tradeoffs.

...I don't think this is audible unless there is a related resonance, which will show-up frequency response. Speakers distort square waves (especially multi-way speakers with crossovers that introduce phase shifts... most speakers). But our ears only hear the frequency components of the square and we don't hear the waveform distortion.

If there is ringing there will be a resonance and you hear a bump-up in frequency response. I'm sure a speaker could be intentionally designed so the ringing is sustained (like a guitar string) but with normal speakers the ringing is short in duration and it's the frequency response variation that we perceive. If there is a resonance/ringing it's usually in the bass range and you can get that with badly designed "one note bass" ported/bass reflex speakers.
 
A smaller-lighter driver should have less inertia. But for bass you need piston area and speakers with multiple small drivers have their own issues/tradeoffs.

...I don't think this is audible unless there is a related resonance, which will show-up frequency response. Speakers distort square waves (especially multi-way speakers with crossovers that introduce phase shifts... most speakers). But our ears only hear the frequency components of the square and we don't hear the waveform distortion.

If there is ringing there will be a resonance and you hear a bump-up in frequency response. I'm sure a speaker could be intentionally designed so the ringing is sustained (like a guitar string) but with normal speakers the ringing is short in duration and it's the frequency response variation that we perceive. If there is a resonance/ringing it's usually in the bass range and you can get that with badly designed "one note bass" ported/bass reflex speakers.
Well said! I take it you are a fan of sealed enclosures? Or were you emphasizing the “poorly designed” aspect of ported/bass reflex?
 
A few basic points are missing from this discussion (although admittedly i did not spell each msg).

1.
Damping Factor is only in play when each individual driver has their own active amp. So XO (active OR passive) takes place BEFORE amplification, lest back EMF will change, on its way to amp output, passing passive XO components.

After that, whatever is damped no longer has much relation to speaker movement, so DF becomes pretty ineffective.

2.
Some amps are famous for having incredible damping capability, based on the genious engineer reinventing Class D amplification.

Bruno Putzeys, first @Philips, then @Hypex and presently @Purifi, gave humanity amps with DFs so high (five digits!), servo systems as mentioned in this thread have effectively become redundant. And these modules start at below 200 bucks.

3.
'Fast bass', although a very subjective concept, is usually indicating a woofer that has dry transient response, among other things (doesn't keep resonating after the punch, sounds completey clear and clean).

Most (even very good) woofers won't give you this, simply because big bass needs big cones that simply weigh too much to stop dead after the signal ceases. Their inertia will force them to keep moving, a little bit at the very least.

The amp will give you this.
An extreme damping factor will immediately remedy this fenomenon. Any out-of-signal movement will simply be cancelled by the amp inverting the back EMF caused by said movement.

4.
If you are using boxed speakers, the 50% of the energy projected inside this box (which will partly pressurize the cone, out of time, so out-of-signal), will coincidentally also be remedied by this high DF.

If you then manage to build a totally inert box, preventing the 50% rear energy loading it's panels at resonance frequencies, this high DF amp is actually solving at least two problems, aside from other qualities it possesses (like virtually load independent frequency response).

And Bob's your uncle.

5.
Do i sound like i'm running a commercial here? Maybe i do, but i guarantee you i have no interest commercially.

It just so happens i love inventors who's brain leaves all other inventors' brains in the dust. Class D exists since forever, and except for being efficient, they were always the worst for hifi. Now they are the only ones able to produce the hights present day hifi has reached.

And i have these amps, they are incredible, they do what they promise, and then some. That just makes me super enthousiastic, so shoot me!
 
Hi,

I'm new in Audio but I have some technical background, altough my master in physics was 18 years ago - so I've forgotten a lot.
I'm interested in increasing the damping of a Midwoofer speaker-driver by modifying the driver itself and the crossover. So that the crossover destroys some of the energy (counter electro magentic force = cemf) that comes from the speaker coil movement. Why damping: because I want a very precise speaker-driver. I know there's a lot of potential because I know a company, who does exactly this and makes incredible good speakers. This company has no patents, so I think, it's a technique from the past.
As I understood: the perfect electric damping would be: if a signal comes from an amp, the coildeflection of the driver follows linearly the voltage of the Amp. If the signal from the amp "stops" (sharp transient) best would be, to have a short circuit over the driver-coil, so no voltage is there anymore, and the coil movement immediately stops. This would happen if the amp would have an output resistance=0, but we all know that's not the case. So any idea how it is possible to increase the electrical damping?

I've found this patent, but I don't understand how it works. Perhaps someone of you can explain me:


Please post also other links and ideas if you have.

would be great

Hi,

I'm new in Audio but I have some technical background, altough my master in physics was 18 years ago - so I've forgotten a lot.
I'm interested in increasing the damping of a Midwoofer speaker-driver by modifying the driver itself and the crossover. So that the crossover destroys some of the energy (counter electro magentic force = cemf) that comes from the speaker coil movement. Why damping: because I want a very precise speaker-driver. I know there's a lot of potential because I know a company, who does exactly this and makes incredible good speakers. This company has no patents, so I think, it's a technique from the past.
As I understood: the perfect electric damping would be: if a signal comes from an amp, the coildeflection of the driver follows linearly the voltage of the Amp. If the signal from the amp "stops" (sharp transient) best would be, to have a short circuit over the driver-coil, so no voltage is there anymore, and the coil movement immediately stops. This would happen if the amp would have an output resistance=0, but we all know that's not the case. So any idea how it is possible to increase the electrical damping?

I've found this patent, but I don't understand how it works. Perhaps someone of you can explain me:


Please post also other links and ideas if you have.

would be great!

Tom
@smowry is into this, maybe contribute
 
Hi Salt,

From the transducer level, I really don't have much to add other than the below.

1. Adding bucking magnets to commercial transducers can result in modest increases in Beta = (Bl)^2/Re and thus modest reductions in Qes.
2. Acoustic Resistive enclosures can increase Rms and thus decrease Qms.

 
A few basic points are missing from this discussion (although admittedly i did not spell each msg).

1.
Damping Factor is only in play when each individual driver has their own active amp. So XO (active OR passive) takes place BEFORE amplification, lest back EMF will change, on its way to amp output, passing passive XO components.

After that, whatever is damped no longer has much relation to speaker movement, so DF becomes pretty ineffective.

2.
Some amps are famous for having incredible damping capability, based on the genious engineer reinventing Class D amplification.

Bruno Putzeys, first @Philips, then @Hypex and presently @Purifi, gave humanity amps with DFs so high (five digits!), servo systems as mentioned in this thread have effectively become redundant. And these modules start at below 200 bucks.

3.
'Fast bass', although a very subjective concept, is usually indicating a woofer that has dry transient response, among other things (doesn't keep resonating after the punch, sounds completey clear and clean).

Most (even very good) woofers won't give you this, simply because big bass needs big cones that simply weigh too much to stop dead after the signal ceases. Their inertia will force them to keep moving, a little bit at the very least.

The amp will give you this.
An extreme damping factor will immediately remedy this fenomenon. Any out-of-signal movement will simply be cancelled by the amp inverting the back EMF caused by said movement.

4.
If you are using boxed speakers, the 50% of the energy projected inside this box (which will partly pressurize the cone, out of time, so out-of-signal), will coincidentally also be remedied by this high DF.

If you then manage to build a totally inert box, preventing the 50% rear energy loading it's panels at resonance frequencies, this high DF amp is actually solving at least two problems, aside from other qualities it possesses (like virtually load independent frequency response).

And Bob's your uncle.

5.
Do i sound like i'm running a commercial here? Maybe i do, but i guarantee you i have no interest commercially.

It just so happens i love inventors who's brain leaves all other inventors' brains in the dust. Class D exists since forever, and except for being efficient, they were always the worst for hifi. Now they are the only ones able to produce the hights present day hifi has reached.

And i have these amps, they are incredible, they do what they promise, and then some. That just makes me super enthousiastic, so shoot me!
The problem is that the DC resistance of the voice coil was totally ignored. For "electrical damping", the effects from the amplifier output resistance and the voice coil DC resistance are the same. Once the amplifier output resistance is below about 10% or 20% of the voice coil resistance, reducing it further does nothing (in terms of electrical damping). This has been pointed out by George Augspurger almost 60 years ago (source), 8 years before Dr Toole's article "Damping, Damping Factor, and Damn Nonsense" (source).

damping_factor_debate.jpg
 
What if 2 x transducer are used in a complementary symmetrical array unit (isobarik loading)?

1. Harmonic distortion is reduced.
2. DC offset (Xdc) is mitigated.
3. An absorptive curtain between transducers reduces Qms.
4. Beta is doubled.
5. Pressure on one side of each diaphragm is approximately constant (iso).

Note that Tiefenbrun's US Patent (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/cb/2c/6a/a88bb919642efb/US4008374.pdf) seems not to feature complementary symmetrical (push-pull) transducer arrays.
 
What if 2 x transducer are used in a complementary symmetrical array unit (isobarik loading)?

1. Harmonic distortion is reduced.
2. DC offset (Xdc) is mitigated.
3. An absorptive curtain between transducers reduces Qms.
4. Beta is doubled.
5. Pressure on one side of each diaphragm is approximately constant (iso).
One could simply use a better driver rather than combining two lesser ones in a compromised fashion, not even cost effective many times. The cones really should have a rigid connection which air cannot afford. And the rear of a driver is seldom optimized for low noise, let alone for a good look.
So, while this is a valid band-aid concept the sex-appeal is basically zero except for the occasional use case in subwoofers.
 
Tom79 why do you think that this will improve the sound of a driver? Just because some speaker builder claims something it doesn’t mean it’s true. Claims by audio manufacturers are often fiction. And as people here have shown, it is unlikely that such dampening is possible to add.
 
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And as people here have shown, it is unlikely that such dampening is possible to add.
It is possible to add but there are issues that must be properly addressed (and some of which are hard to address in practice).

The main idea is when you increase the damping to infinity (effective drive impedance of amp + voice coil impedance = zero at all times) then the voice coil acts perfectly as a motor and as a velocity sensor at the same time. All of the voltage is back-EMF (microphonic voltage) and therefore the speaker fully follows the velocity imprinted by the amp. Any deviation from the imprinted motion immediately creates a huge correcting current because the so-called transfer impedance which created the current from the applied voltage is basically zero, and I = U/R, Ohms law.

The issues are:
- voice coil DC impedance is varying with temperature
- voice coil static AC impedance is "semi-inductive" and not constant either, varying with position of the VC in the gap and number of other issues.
- the voice coil as a sensor is as nonlinear as it is as a motor, notably near the excursion limit, leading to wrong reading of the current velocity and thus wrong correction.
- for ported speaker you need certain limiting range of damping for it to work, extremely strong damping is not helpful.
- basically all drivers don't like extreme (or any) damping at higher frequencies, creating more distortion (after all, driver are current-operated devices).

These issues make full damping (= full velocity motion control) impractical but partially increased damping at low frequencies is feasible and can improve measured and perceived performance. Amp impedance going negative at low frequencies to about 1/2...2/3 of VC DC resistance usually works OK.
 
right, like the DC-Resistance in the coils of the motor. But in contrary to my DC-Motor example the Speaker Driver normally works above its resonance frequency, and when "stopped" membrane vibrates with the damped resonance frequency. But this doesn't change anything.
Thanks for your inputs!

So what I see, the only possibility to create better electrical damping , is a very short pole reversal that comes from the amp. Sure this would only be possible with closed loop feedback from the speaker (with a sensor on the Membrane, Coil,..). Or perhaps this pole reversal could come from the network from the crossover? Something like a coil or Condensor that is charged always to the oposite direction and unload its energy into the coil of the speaker driver, as soon as the voltage from the amp falls against the cemf of the coil of the driver? Just a tought experiment, don't know exactly how it could work.
You seem to be thinking that good bass comes from the ability to stop a speaker movement instantly - that is not the case. This would require infinite bandwidth going to the driver - and the driver being able to respond to it.

But the crossover blocks higher frequencies from a bass driver - so that only frequencies it is able to "follow" are (should be) sent to it. So you never get a "hard" cutoff sent to the voice coil - there must always be a decay limited by the bandwidth of the signal from the crossover. (Think electromechanical gibbs phenomena)

(Unlike a motor - we don't have a switch between the driving voltage and the motor)

Our speakers don't need to reproduce square waves - no instruments produce them. And bass drivers don't need to reproduce frequencies above their crossover. That is what mid range drivers or tweeters are for.
 
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Make the speaker active, the amp(s) can the fully use the output impedance to 'tame' the speaker
 
A good choice of an amplifier to drive a DIY active complementary symmetrical transducer array is the Fosi V3 Monoblock. The V3's feedback technology results in very low output impedance. Additionally, the V3 seems comfortable with the typical 2 ohm load of such an array (4 || 4 = 2) and with an output of greater than 300 W into 2 ohms! Not to mention that they are low cost. Their tiny package size allows the V3 to be located very close to the loudspeaker or even integrated into the enclosure topology. This results in short amp to transducers interconnects; less is more. Then the longer run of processor to amp can be a balanced connection.

 
A common request of the systems engineer typically directed to the transducer engineer is "Can you improve the driver's bass response?" Most transducer engineers would say sure and then proceed to increase Mass and Beta. Many times this can be implemented by simply modifying the voice coil and the associated OD magnetic gap clearances.

Beta = (Bl)^2/Re (N^2/W)
Where: Re = (rho)l/A (ohms)
And rho is the electrical resistivity of the voice coil wire (ohm meter). A is the cross-section of voice coil wire (m^2).
Then: Beta = (B^2)l(A)/rho
But l x A = Volume (m^3), where l is the length of voice coil wire (m).
Beta = Volume of conductor x B^2/rho
Additionally: Mass = Density x Volume (kg)

Note that relative to a single transducer, a complementary symmetrical transducer array doubles mass and doubles Beta. The issue for commercial loudspeaker system implementation is cost and/or complexity. For a DIYer, a complementary symmetrical transducer array offers additional degree(s) of design freedom. A complementary symmetrical transducer array can be a method of "Hot Rodding" a driver pair(s). Additional options include adding additional mass (cone doping) and/or adding auxiliary magnets.

Then at least in some cases, the complementary symmetrical transducer array is in effect a "better driver" than a single (same) transducer in part for the previously stated claims. Otherwise the argument must be made that the complementary symmetrical transducer array reduces performance relative to the single transducer.
 
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A smaller-lighter driver should have less inertia. But for bass you need piston area and speakers with multiple small drivers have their own issues/tradeoffs.

...I don't think this is audible unless there is a related resonance, which will show-up frequency response. Speakers distort square waves (especially multi-way speakers with crossovers that introduce phase shifts... most speakers). But our ears only hear the frequency components of the square and we don't hear the waveform distortion.

If there is ringing there will be a resonance and you hear a bump-up in frequency response. I'm sure a speaker could be intentionally designed so the ringing is sustained (like a guitar string) but with normal speakers the ringing is short in duration and it's the frequency response variation that we perceive. If there is a resonance/ringing it's usually in the bass range and you can get that with badly designed "one note bass" ported/bass reflex speakers.
Take any signal that you like - Fourier analysis allows you to exactly represent (decompose) that time waveform with the sum of sine-waves of differing amplitudes and phases. When you have phase distortion in any of these harmonic components, the resultant waveform in the time domain is distorted, which our ears may or may not hear, depending upon the type of sound and the acoustic environment. The distortion is clearly evident on an oscilloscope and agrees 100% with theory.

The speaker industry have been telling everyone that the ear is not sensitive to phase. They are correct, the ear cannot detect absolute phase, but thats not what distortion produces - it produces a distortion of the resultant time waveform - which is purely a scalar value.
 
So with regards to the topic, "Increase (electrical) Damping of a Driver", there are few options for a DIYer.

1. For electrical damping, Qes can be modestly reduced by adding auxiliary magnets and/or magnetic assemblies to the transducer.
2. For mechanical damping, an absorptive curtain within a complementary symmetrical transducer pair can be used to reduce Qms.
3. For acoustical damping, acoustic resistive loading can be applied.
4. Get a better driver with a lower Q.

A new transducer design has vast possibilities.
 
1. For electrical damping, Qes can be modestly reduced by adding auxiliary magnets and/or magnetic assemblies to the transducer.
2. For mechanical damping, an absorptive curtain within a complementary symmetrical transducer pair can be used to reduce Qms.
3. For acoustical damping, acoustic resistive loading can be applied.
4. Get a better driver with a lower Q.
5. Modify amp to have slightly negative output impedance at low frequencies. With simple class-AB designs like chip amps this is rather easy to do.
 
5. Modify amp to have slightly negative output impedance at low frequencies. With simple class-AB designs like chip amps this is rather easy to do.

Are there any commercial amplifiers that have negative output impedance at low frequencies?
 
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