In-home DAC blind abx test results: Hegel h390 DAC vs Mytek Manhatten ii DAC

[tallbeardedone]

Here's my experience from yesterday, take from it what you will:

My local hi-fi dealer was kind enough to lend me a Mytek Manhattan ii DAC (retail ~$10k NZD) which I set up to do a reasonably controlled blind ABX test against the internal DAC in my Hegel h390 integrated amp in my home listening room.

SET-UP: My listening room is acoustically treated with floor-to-ceiling book shelves on two walls and a velvet curtain on the third with the back wall opening into my large open plan kitchen and living space.

My speakers are Monitor Audio gx300s which have been carefully placed in-room using WASP and Master Set via close email correspondence with Bob Huggins, spl meter, measuring tape, laser level, and my ears. Here is there frequency response of the gx300's (note that with grills on (black line) fr is +/- 1.5dB across the entire band with the peak at 5kHz nicely attenuated):

My digital source is an Auralic Aries G1 streamer streaming lossless FLAC PCM (Qobuz) connected via AQ carbon USB cable.

Due to the super high 10.8V xlr output of the Mytek I had to level-match using a 200Hz test tone and spl meter. It ended up that my loud listening level of 70 via the Hegel internal DAC (~70dB at listening position) was matched at 51 via the Mytek. Massive difference.

I then personally performed 6 sets of blind ABX testing with my girlfriend switching between the Hegel DAC and Mytek DAC with no filters or processing. The switching time was approximately 2min to turn off everything and swap the USB cable from the back of the Hegel to the back of the Mytek and turn everything back on, change the input, and level match volume. I then ran the same test series for my girlfriend. It took us approximately 1.5 hours in total.

Test tracks used and what I was listening for are as follows:

Bass extension, linearity, and output: Royals by Lorde, Ballad of the Runaway Horse by Wasserman, Gentle Rain by Houston Person
Soundstage placement: Pink Panther theme by Christophe Beck
Center imaging: Little Room by Nora Jones
Soundstage depth: Jack Sparrow, Royal Philharmonic Film Classics album
Soundstage width: Robot Rock/Oh Yeah by Daft Punk, Motherboard by Daft Punk

RESULTS: I could hear NO discernible difference at all between DACs, neither could my girlfriend. We both felt we were just guessing when picking the X and the results verified it. I got 3 of 6 right, she got 2, but we might as well have been flipping a coin. It was literal blind luck.

Afterward I would say the most common factors causing people to hear discernible differences between modern DACs is placebo, consumer bias, or not level-matching. These high priced DACs often have silly hi output voltages which would make them noticeably louder at the same volume level on your amp.

If anyone is in New Zealand and wants to try the test I have the DAC for the weekend. Come on down it's great fun! I'd also love to test any other DACs that people are willing to donate, especially a Holo Audio May KTE!

TLDR; NO discernible difference was detected between Hegel h390 internal DAC and Mytek Manhattan ii DAC in level-matched blind ABX test in my listening room.

 

[JRS]

Here's my experience from yesterday, take from it what you will:

My local hi-fi dealer was kind enough to lend me a Mytek Manhattan ii DAC (retail ~$10k NZD) which I set up to do a reasonably controlled blind ABX test against the internal DAC in my Hegel h390 integrated amp in my home listening room.

SET-UP: My listening room is acoustically treated with floor-to-ceiling book shelves on two walls and a velvet curtain on the third with the back wall opening into my large open plan kitchen and living space.

My speakers are Monitor Audio gx300s which have been carefully placed in-room using WASP and Master Set via close email correspondence with Bob Huggins, spl meter, measuring tape, laser level, and my ears. Here is there frequency response of the gx300's (note that with grills on (black line) fr is +/- 1.5dB across the entire band with the peak at 5kHz nicely attenuated):
View attachment 231163
My digital source is an Auralic Aries G1 streamer streaming lossless FLAC PCM (Qobuz) connected via AQ carbon USB cable.

Due to the super high 10.8V xlr output of the Mytek I had to level-match using a 200Hz test tone and spl meter. It ended up that my loud listening level of 70 via the Hegel internal DAC (~70dB at listening position) was matched at 51 via the Mytek. Massive difference.

I then personally performed 6 sets of blind ABX testing with my girlfriend switching between the Hegel DAC and Mytek DAC with no filters or processing. The switching time was approximately 2min to turn off everything and swap the USB cable from the back of the Hegel to the back of the Mytek and turn everything back on, change the input, and level match volume. I then ran the same test series for my girlfriend. It took us approximately 1.5 hours in total.

Test tracks used and what I was listening for are as follows:

Bass extension, linearity, and output: Royals by Lorde, Ballad of the Runaway Horse by Wasserman, Gentle Rain by Houston Person
Soundstage placement: Pink Panther theme by Christophe Beck
Center imaging: Little Room by Nora Jones
Soundstage depth: Jack Sparrow, Royal Philharmonic Film Classics album
Soundstage width: Robot Rock/Oh Yeah by Daft Punk, Motherboard by Daft Punk

RESULTS: I could hear NO discernible difference at all between DACs, neither could my girlfriend. We both felt we were just guessing when picking the X and the results verified it. I got 3 of 6 right, she got 2, but we might as well have been flipping a coin. It was literal blind luck.

Afterward I would say the most common factors causing people to hear discernible differences between modern DACs is placebo, consumer bias, or not level-matching. These high priced DACs often have silly hi output voltages which would make them noticeably louder at the same volume level on your amp.

If anyone is in New Zealand and wants to try the test I have the DAC for the weekend. Come on down it's great fun! I'd also love to test any other DACs that people are willing to donate, especially a Holo Audio May KTE!

TLDR; NO discernible difference was detected between Hegel h390 internal DAC and Mytek Manhattan ii DAC in level-matched blind ABX test in my listening room.

Just stumbled across this thread. I say congratulations for doing the test. Methodology seems sound but I suspect would be attacked on the grounds of length of time required between switches. The supposition there seems self defeating as if you can't remember the difference in spite of a best effort, than said difference is meaningless.

 

[Ivan.ruiz]

Here's my experience from yesterday, take from it what you will:

My local hi-fi dealer was kind enough to lend me a Mytek Manhattan ii DAC (retail ~$10k NZD) which I set up to do a reasonably controlled blind ABX test against the internal DAC in my Hegel h390 integrated amp in my home listening room.

SET-UP: My listening room is acoustically treated with floor-to-ceiling book shelves on two walls and a velvet curtain on the third with the back wall opening into my large open plan kitchen and living space.

My speakers are Monitor Audio gx300s which have been carefully placed in-room using WASP and Master Set via close email correspondence with Bob Huggins, spl meter, measuring tape, laser level, and my ears. Here is there frequency response of the gx300's (note that with grills on (black line) fr is +/- 1.5dB across the entire band with the peak at 5kHz nicely attenuated):
View attachment 231163
My digital source is an Auralic Aries G1 streamer streaming lossless FLAC PCM (Qobuz) connected via AQ carbon USB cable.

Due to the super high 10.8V xlr output of the Mytek I had to level-match using a 200Hz test tone and spl meter. It ended up that my loud listening level of 70 via the Hegel internal DAC (~70dB at listening position) was matched at 51 via the Mytek. Massive difference.

I then personally performed 6 sets of blind ABX testing with my girlfriend switching between the Hegel DAC and Mytek DAC with no filters or processing. The switching time was approximately 2min to turn off everything and swap the USB cable from the back of the Hegel to the back of the Mytek and turn everything back on, change the input, and level match volume. I then ran the same test series for my girlfriend. It took us approximately 1.5 hours in total.

Test tracks used and what I was listening for are as follows:

Bass extension, linearity, and output: Royals by Lorde, Ballad of the Runaway Horse by Wasserman, Gentle Rain by Houston Person
Soundstage placement: Pink Panther theme by Christophe Beck
Center imaging: Little Room by Nora Jones
Soundstage depth: Jack Sparrow, Royal Philharmonic Film Classics album
Soundstage width: Robot Rock/Oh Yeah by Daft Punk, Motherboard by Daft Punk

RESULTS: I could hear NO discernible difference at all between DACs, neither could my girlfriend. We both felt we were just guessing when picking the X and the results verified it. I got 3 of 6 right, she got 2, but we might as well have been flipping a coin. It was literal blind luck.

Afterward I would say the most common factors causing people to hear discernible differences between modern DACs is placebo, consumer bias, or not level-matching. These high priced DACs often have silly hi output voltages which would make them noticeably louder at the same volume level on your amp.

If anyone is in New Zealand and wants to try the test I have the DAC for the weekend. Come on down it's great fun! I'd also love to test any other DACs that people are willing to donate, especially a Holo Audio May KTE!

TLDR; NO discernible difference was detected between Hegel h390 internal DAC and Mytek Manhattan ii DAC in level-matched blind ABX test in my listening room.

I have a H390 and a Denafrips terminator plus. After a few months of enjoying the Hegel by itself, I hooked up the Terminator to the Hegel in a loop and oh! It immediately sounded brighter, cleaner, better, more open. I called my wife and explained to her what I had done and she agreed that it sounded great- Sophie Zalmani- so I decided I was going to keep the set-up and maybe buy an even better DAC because it did matter. After a while I discovered that the loop was not closed. The terminator had never been connected. It was all an illusion. So I fixed it, got it properly connected and in the end properly disconnected for it is a totally useless complication and waste of money. The Hegel by itself sounds great.
Sopra 3 and Sibelius speakers. Same result.

 

[Overseas]

Don't tell your wife. They do not accept to be wrong.

 

[Ivan.ruiz]

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Just stumbled across this thread. I say congratulations for doing the test. Methodology seems sound but I suspect would be attacked on the grounds of length of time required between switches. The supposition there seems self defeating as if you can't remember the difference in spite of a best effort, than said difference is meaningless.

If there are some dB's difference I hope most people will be able to discern two sound profiles. I certainly can. -I use EQ and DSP to get the response I like.

The real question is whether there are several dB's difference between DAC's frequency response and if the noise floor is sufficiently low.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Nice.
When dacs ale level matched the difference is just not there. I did similar testing with 10k dac was 400bucks dac.
You can guess the outcome.

Pozdrawiam

 

[Nick1881]

My first listen to my RME ADI-2 DAC FS compared to my Audiolab MDAC, I was blown away by the difference, then I measured the levels. The RME was 3dB higher, it was quite shocking how much better I perceived it just by this slightly higher level.

After level matching I was still convinced the RME sounded a little bit better, so it will be staying, probably forever. I'm not sure I could reliably pick the difference in a double blind test though.

 

[voodooless]

it was quite shocking how much better I perceived it just by this slightly higher level.

Frequency response perception is the paramount metric for humans to perceive a difference. And a level difference gives a perceived difference not just in level, but also in the way we perceive frequencies:

People that thing that they can hear differences in DACs that measure a 10 SINAD difference with a 100+ SINAD and don’t think level matching is important are just silly.

 

[JRS]

If there are some dB's difference I hope most people will be able to discern two sound profiles. I certainly can. -I use EQ and DSP to get the response I like.

The real question is whether there are several dB's difference between DAC's frequency response and if the noise floor is sufficiently low.

I'd be surprised if there are more than a couple of tenths diff. The response of digital done right has been ruler flat pretty much from the get go--maybe a little droop on the freq extremes given filter differences and maybe PS. But no room is flat enough to expose the difference on the low side and god knows my ears and anyone over the age of 20 ears wont reach the other end (with rare exception and a rare recording that has content above 16k).